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UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
Memórias – Preserving the Stories of
Lowell's Portuguese Community
Oral History Interview with Dimas Espinola, October 19, 2017
Biographical Note:
Born on the Azorean island of Terceira, in the village of Biscoitos, in 1950; Dimas Espinola
immigrated with his family to the United States in the late 1960s, settling in Lowell’s “Back
Central” (predominately Portuguese) neighborhood; his father, formerly a furniture maker in
Biscoitos, obtained a job as a loom fixer in the Wannalancit Mills; his mother worked as a
dressmaker; Mr. Espinola received his formal education in schools on Terceira and, upon
arriving in Lowell, he secured a work permit and, at nearly 17 years of age, he was employed in
a manufacturing job in the Paris shoe factory on Bridge Street; at the same time Mr. Espinola, a
communicant at St. Anthony’s Church, began working closely with the pastor, Rev. John F.
Silva; among his activities was translating English for Portuguese members of the community,
which included various issues affecting the neighborhood, including a state-proposed extension
of the Lowell Connector highway that threatened many homes and businesses in the “Back
Central” neighborhood; in addition to his community activism and work with the church, Mr.
Espinola also became involved with the Portuguese-American Center (and its soccer team), as
well as the Holy Ghost Society; he remained in the shoe industry for many years, becoming a
foreman and factory manager.
Scope and Contents:
Interview conducted by consulting historian Gray Fitzsimons; a large part of this interview
focuses on the organized opposition (and Mr. Espinola’s role in this opposition) to the Lowell
Connector highway extension in the early 1970s and the threat of demolition of a large section of
the “Back Central” neighborhood; it also contains some information on the family background of
Mr. Espinola, the family’s immigrating from the Terceira to the United States, the working lives
of the Espinola family in Lowell’s shoe factories in the 1970s and 1980s, as well as observations
on the various businesses and cultures that would have been gravely impaired had the highway
extension been constructed. The interview concludes with a discussion of the Carnation
Revolution in April 1974 and Mr. Espinola’s observations on the changes in attitudes toward
mainland Portugal among Azoreans compared to those of Portuguese in the United States.
INTERVIEWEE: DIMAS ESPINOLA
INTERVIEWER: GRAY FITZSIMONS
D=DIMAS
G=GRAY
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�G: All right. We are recording here. So it’s Thursday, October 19th, and I’m here with Dimas
Espinola. And thank you Dimas again for joining me here.
D: Sure.
G: Just a few questions. First of all just a little bit about your background. Where were you
born and what year?
D: I was born in the Azores Island, Terceira specifically, a little village called Biscoitos. In
English, biscuits. [Both laugh] But it was one of the, probably one of the busiest seaports,
fishing ports in the island.
G: I see, okay.
D: Yah, it’s in the northern part of the island.
G: Yah, what year were you born?
D: I was born in 1950
G: Okay. You and I are about the same age. And then so when and why did you come to the
U.S.?
D: We came to the states in [19]67, 1967. My, one of my uncles, my father’s brother petitioned
the whole family. He had finally become an American citizen. He was living in the country. He
was living here. He first started living in Lowell and then he moved out to California. And
because the lady that he had, the lady that he married was from Lowell.
G: Yes, yes.
D: So you know, they were living in back of, on Summer Street.
G: Yes, Summer Street. Okay.
D: By the South Common.
G: But they went to California for a short time?
D: Yah, they went to California and then from there (--)
G: Do you know where in California they were?
D: San Jose.
G: Okay, San Jose.
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�D: And they settled, they’ve been there. He’s still alive. He’s still there.
G: Oh, he’s still there?
D: He’s still there.
G: Okay, but he was here when your family came over, correct?
D: No, no, he was in California already.
G: Oh he was?
D: Yah. He came to the states maybe in late [19]50s?
G: Okay.
D: Late [19]50s and then he moved up to California at the beginning of the [19]60s. Because
we came and he was already gone.
G: Okay. So did he come to the U.S. as part of that legislation that freed up immigration from
Portugal, from the Islands?
D: No. He came (--) We do have relatives that came from that time, from the [Capelhinos]
volcano [eruptions in 1957-58].
G: Yes.
D: But they went to Peabody. They were on my paternal grandmother’s side. Her brothers
settled in Peabody. And my uncle was (--) It started (--) There was my grandfather’s sister,
paternal grandfather’s sister somehow came to the states, (G: Okay) and came to Lowell and she
settled here. And of course in the community you know everybody. She was this girl, at the
time blonde, beautiful and so was my uncle, you know. So they start writing each other. You
know, my uncle became friends with the family. They started writing letters back and forth.
And all of a sudden she ends up in a trip over there to the village where we lived. (G: Yes) And
they got, and then they decided to get married. They got married and started (--)
G: Yes, they got married over there?
D: Yah, she got married over there. I was the chaperone. They stayed at (--) I was I think, I
don’t know, five years old at the time. And every place they went I had to go with them.
[Laughs] And they got married, and she petitioned him. So he stayed behind.
G: Got you. And she came back to Lowell.
D: She came back to Lowell.
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�G: Petitioned and he came over and joined her.
D: He joined her. Usually I think in those days it took about two years for a husband.
G: Oh wow, two years.
D: Like it took my parents five years waiting time. [Comment unclear]
G: Yes. So why didn’t your family move to California as opposed to moving to Lowell?
D: Because my mother, my mother’s two aunts living in Lowell. My maternal grandmother had
two sisters that came over in 1910 to work in the mills in Lowell. (G: Okay) So they grew up
here. You know, they came at a young age. And they married and they settled here. One lived
in Lowell. One lived in Dracut. So, and my mother used to exchange letters with all of them,
with the both of them. And so she decided to stay here, because she kind of got, so especially
the one that she got to know just through the, through the letters, you know, by correspondence.
G: So, and what did they, what did your parents do when they arrived in Lowell? For
employment?
D: I think they both (--) See in those days you had to have a job guarantee. And then my uncle
was responsible for whole family for five years.
G: Yes, even though he was in California.
D: Even though he was in California. He had to sign all that paperwork and everything went
through the consulate like it does today. I think they worked for (--) Because I came six months.
They came in January. I came in July. (G: Okay) But they started off like in the shoe factories.
And then my mother went to Nathan Solomon right down the street here.
G: Bridge Street.
D: No, no, right here at the foot of, at the foot (G: Of John Street) right after the Bridge on the
left there. That was Nathan Solomon.
G: Yes, okay.
D: Later Pajama Factory. And my father worked for Wannalancit Textile.
G: He worked at Wannalancit? Okay.
D: Yah, he was a loom fixer.
G: Oh no kidding. That’s a highly skilled job.
D: Yah, he was a furniture maker in the old country.
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�G: Oh, okay. Okay. Well that’s interesting.
D: So he picked it up pretty good.
G: So how many years did he work at the Wannalancit?
D: Most of his life.
G: Did he?
D: Yah, most of his life until they kind of phased down.
G: And how long did your mother work at Solomon?
D: Until she retired.
G: Wow. And you said, did they work in a shoe factory initially?
D: I think they worked at Grace Shoe, because when I came, when I got here in July they were
already at these jobs. So they just like a try-out.
G: Okay, got you. Got you. Okay.
D: First thing, yah.
G: All right. And so, you went to public school in Lowell then.
D: No, I went to night school. I just went to night school just to (--)
G: Were you educated back in Terceira?
D: Yes, I went to school in Terceira. When I came I had what it was called, at the time it was
called an associate’s degree (G: Yes) if you compared the (--)
G: Got you, yes.
D: I learned English and French. I had three years of English when I come over.
G: Your English is very good.
D: Not in those days, because I was afraid to speak, because we learned the English, English is
(--) The Queen’s English, the pronunciation is different. So you know.
G: Exactly, yes.
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�D: It was funny, because when I started working they used to tell me to do stuff and I’d do it. I
could hear him, “How does he understand everything we say, but he doesn’t say anything back?”
And I finally told this, my fellow there, because everybody was either Portuguese, Greek, or
Puerto Rican. That was the nationalities that we had around in Lowell.
G: Of course.
D: Or Polish. And he was a Greek fellow, and I told him, “You guys will make fun of me if I
talk, you know. My accent is different than yours.” He said, “No, don’t worry. Go ahead.”
[Comment unclear].
G: So you were about seventeen when you came here?
D: Sixteen, sixteen and a half.
G: Sixteen, and so what did you do when you first arrived in July?
D: I went to work. I got my worker’s, you needed a working permit.
G: Yes, yes.
D: And I went to work in a shoe factory.
G: Oh you did? Grace or Carroll Shoe?
D: No, Paris. That was on Bridge Street. It’s the last one that is being remodeled down there.
G: Yes.
D: That building down at the end.
G: Okay. And how long did you work there?
D: Thirteen years I worked there.
G: Fifteen?
D: Thirteen. The best job of my life.
G: No kidding.
D: I was young. It was unbelievable. It was good.
G: What sort of work did you do in the factory?
D: I started working as a machine operator. And then I got, became like assistant supervisor.
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�G: Yes. Were there a lot of other Portuguese working there?
D: Yah, at the time yes. We had like, Paris Shoe had like four hundred employees at the
highest. And I say close to half of them were Portuguese.
G: Wow, yah. So there was still a number of shoe companies operating back then too, including
Carroll Shoe? Did you (--)
D: One year (--) One day I worked in three places. I quit Paris. I went down to I forget the
name of one. Where Notini’s was there was, the latest machinery and everything. So I quit Paris
at eleven. I went over there and I worked until 1:30. And I said, “I can’t go home. My mother
is going to be upset.” And so I went the Carroll Shoe. I knew the (--) Because you knew all of
these supervisors. They weren’t around. And I worked there until 6:00. And the next Saturday I
went. He told me, “Do you want to come in tomorrow?” So I did. Then I come home. My
mother said, “Oh, this gentleman called.” She couldn’t hardly say his name, which was the
owner of the Paris Shoe and “He wants to talk to you. He’s waiting for you.” So I called him
back. He asked me what happened. I told him. He says, “Come back Monday.”
G: So they hired you back?
D: He hired me right on, he took me right back.
G: I understand that Carroll Shoe employed a lot of Portuguese as well.
D: It did, but then they were smaller than Paris.
G: Yah, right.
D: Grace Shoe has the largest. They had a lot of Portuguese people working there.
G: Yes, maybe more percentage-wise of Portuguese at Carroll then (--)
D: Then at Paris because we had a lot of Greek immigrants working there too. It was like half.
Almost (--) And we had French Canadians, you know, from Little Quebec [unclear].
G: Of course, yah.
D: You know, in those days that was the way you would talk to each other. There was no
political way. It’s the way it was and we all loved it you know.
G: Yah. Well let me ask you. This is interesting, because you were involved in the Connector
opposition. In the late [19]60s the city planners with the state proposed extending the Lowell
Connector to basically smash through Back Central.
D: It would have done that, yah.
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�G: And taken out a lot of houses.
D: Over 400.
G: Yes, which would have virtually destroyed the Portuguese (--)
D: Yah, it would have gone through King Street, the back (--) By the parking lot of Saint
Anthony’s Church all the way to Elm Street. It would have taken that whole block all the way
down to Lawrence Street.
G: Right. Right. So let me ask you though, why did you become involved in objecting to this?
D: Oh, at the time I was involved in quite a few things. I was, you know, involved in the
church, you know, for affairs, helping out. And I was at the, starting at the Portuguese-American
Center with the Soccer Team. And the reason I got involved was mostly to speak to the
Portuguese people. You know, they would have these meetings, because the real movement
beyond that was like the, were like the Father John Silva, who was the pastor.
G: So he was one of the major (D: Yes) opponents in (D: Definitely. Oh yes, he was)
organizing in Back Central.
D: Yah, and the, I would say the first and second generation of Portuguese people living in
Lowell, you know, the ones that the grandparents and parents came in the early 1900s.
G: Yes, and owned property, correct?
D: Yah, and owned property. At the time the Connector was there, now these people were like
leaders, the kind, the community, the foundation of the community.
G: Yes, kind of like the community elders, right?
D: Exactly, because they had organized the social clubs, the Portuguese-American Center, the
Civic League, the Holy Ghost Society.
G: Yes.
D: The church, and we kind of just came in and then the population, the community started
growing, but they were the, the focal point.
G: Yes, they were the major force.
D: Yah, because the Portuguese people per say, especially the immigrants, they didn’t care
much about politics.
G: Ah huh. Yes, I wanted to ask you about that.
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�D: They never cared, and still to this day they don’t care about politics, because, and I say
because they didn’t live the experience of the people after the revolution. Their relatives that
were in the state back and never made it here, (G: I see) you know, that’s totally different people
than the way we were brought up.
G: This was the revolution in Portugal in the [19]20s.
D: No, no, no, in [19]74.
G: In [19]74. Okay.
D: Most of the Lowell Community came on the late [19]60s early [19]70s, before the revolution.
G: Yes, yes.
D: So they didn’t, politics was nothing to them.
G: I see. They stayed out of politics.
D: They stayed out of politics. They came here just to try to go to work, send the kids to school,
which was hard for everybody because there was no bilingual thank God, no bilingual. They
learned English.
G: Yes. So, but let me ask you, why do you think this older generation was more politically
active? The older generation?
D: Because they were born here. A lot of them were born here.
G: I see. Okay.
D: They were born here, the people. They were like, I would say second generation. Their
grandparents came in the late 1800s. Then they have children and (--).
G: So they became somewhat accustomed to local politics. And so they (--)
D: That’s what they were, yah.
G: Well speaking of involvement in local politics, this is Manuel Figuera.
D: Yah, he was, he was, on the Connector he was tireless this gentleman, tireless.
G: How do you pronounce his name?
D: Figuera. Manuel Figuera.
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�G: Was he also known as Raymond, because I’ve heard him called Raymond for some reason.
D: No.
G: No.
D: I think his son was Raymond.
G: Oh okay. Okay.
D: I know he has a grandson that’s Raymond. I don’t know if his son is Raymond.
G: Okay.
D: But he’s Manuel Figuera, yes.
G: And what do you remember about him?
D: Great man. (G: Yes) Stubborn, but a great friend. Yah, very stubborn.
G: It’s interesting.
D: [Figuera’s view was] “I mean it’s my way. This is the way we should do it. That’s the way
we got to do it.” We love, everybody loved him.
G: Was he a fluent English speaker, or with some difficulty?
D: Yes! No, no, no, he could speak English. He knew all the politicians. He knew everybody
downtown this guy.
G: And he was from Madeira?
D: Madeira, yes. He knew everybody. Anybody that had power in Lowell he knew him.
G: Yes. Yah. Okay. All right. Now interestingly I have a photograph. It’s hard to see really,
but a picture of you. And here you are at a meeting about the Connector and you are, you were
the translator.
D: Yes. I was (--) This was at the, if I’m not mistaken, this was at the Rogers School.
G: Okay, okay.
D: At the Rogers School. The place was packed. Packed, packed, packed.
G: Yes, and City Councilor Brenden Fleming was there. Yes, yes.
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�D: Yah, and yes, I was the translator, yah, because as they spoke I was telling the Portuguese
people what they were saying and what was going on.
G: Of course. Now the other thing is this is interesting. Dimas, this is a letter, this is an article
you wrote for the Lowell Communicator. The newspaper the Communicator? I don’t know if
you (--) Do you remember writing this?
D: 1972.
G: Yah. It’s basically to, obviously to inform Portuguese speaking people whose English was
limited, the issues about the Connector. I don’t read Portuguese. So I don’t know (--)
D: No, no, do you mind if I (--) I don’t recall this, The Communicator. I don’t even (--)
G: Okay, what does the article say?
D: The article says, it’s just putting, letting everybody know that there’s going to be a decision
made on the 27th of June.
G: Yes, 1972?
D: 1972, about the Lowell Connector.
G: Yes.
D: Everybody (--) We (--) Everybody thinks it’s going to be a “no go”. The decision will be not
to proceed with the, with the Connector. This is what the people want. We don’t want this
Connector to be built.
G: Yes.
D: And then who’s pushing for this? Certainly not the people in the area or in the
neighborhood.
G: Yes.
D: But most likely the business people downtown in Lowell, there’re the ones that are probably
pushing for this because they don’t care about the Lowell people up in, you know, up in this area
who work. At this time they were already buying a lot of properties, ’72, (G: Right), because as
I say (--)
G: The city was buying property.
D: No, no, the Portuguese people.
G: Yes, okay.
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�D: The Portuguese people were buying, because they came, they rent, or they live with relative
for like a week or two and then they find an apartment. As soon as they got a job they found an
apartment.
G: And then they would have saved up money and buy property.
D: Yah, it usually would take about a couple of years for them to buy a home.
G: I see, okay, because Back Central was affordable back then, right?
D: Yah, my parents bought a one-family for $5,000 while they could have bought a two family
next door for $3,000. [Laughs]
G: Yes, yes. Right, right.
D: Yah, yah, we work very hard for everything that we have. And it doesn’t matter if we own,
or we’re renters, and even not be an American citizen, we can’t vote, but that doesn’t mean that
we can’t, you know, speak our minds.
G: All right. So that’s an important point you were trying to get across to the people in the
neighborhood.
D: Yah, just for the people yah.
G: Yah, right. So even if they didn’t own property they had a stake in this.
D: Yes, because we lived in the area and we took care of the property.
G: Right, it was their lives right?
D: Yes, we don’t want to go through. No one wants to go through, (G: Right) through the same
hardships that we did when we first arrived here, you know, with not, not speaking English and
not knowing anything. (G: Right) Because if the roads went through it would destroy the
community and everybody would have to start (--)
G: Start over again.
D: Start all over again.
G: Right, right. Okay. So that’s what you were writing about.
D: Yah, that’s what, this is what I’m re-translating.
G: Yes, exactly.
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�D: That we all have our lives organized. We lived next to our families and friends, and if we
wanted to go to the store, we just walked down the store. Everything is around us. Are we going
to let all of this go because of the rich, rich people that wants to take advantage of the lower
people, you know, today is the 1%.
G: Interestingly Dimas you put it in class terms. You kind of put it in part in terms of social
class.
D: Yah, kind of now reading this, yah, I think I did.
G: Did you read Karl Marx when you were a young student?
D: No, I did not. No. No, I did not. No, I did not.
G: But it is interesting that you did point out that the wealthy could benefit from this at the
expense of the poor people, or the less wealthy I should say.
D: Now we shouldn’t let this happen, because if they, if they build the road a lot of people will
be out of housing. They will lose their homes and they will have hard times probably finding a
house. They wouldn’t have probably hard time finding a house, but a lot of people didn’t have
cars. So that would have made their lives more difficult, because in those days everybody
walked downtown to work.
G: Yes.
D: And then their way up they all stopped at the Pioneer Market. They did the food shopping
there for the week. They’d cash their checks there. And Pioneer Market delivered. Two hours
later, an hour later they have the food there like three vans going out all of the time.
G: Yes, where was the Pioneer Market?
D: At the corner of Charles and Central, (G: Okay) where, right across the monument there.
G: Yes, what’s there today? Do you know?
D: Pioneer Liquors. A liquor store.
G: Oh okay. Okay, but that was like the key grocery store.
D: That was it. That was it. That was a small Stop &, there was a Stop & Shop in the plaza.
G: Yah, yah.
D: Where there’s a fitness center. That used to be a Stop & Shop there (G: Okay) but
everybody just walked up, stopped at the Pioneer Market, do their shopping there. They had full
(--) I was (--) If you’ve heard about the first DeMoulas Store? It was even smaller than that, but
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�they had butchers there. They had everything. Everything was fresh. They had the best fruit in
the city.
G: No kidding.
D: Yah, and they cut, they cut your steaks the way you want. If you didn’t like what you see on
the counter, you’d say, “I want it this way. I want it that way.”
G: Wow.
D: They spoke Portuguese. They were Portuguese.
G: Yes. They were Portuguese, the owners, right?
D: Yah, yah. In fact one of them, Paul Silva, he might remember a lot of this stuff too. He runs,
he owns the Whipple Café.
G: Café? He does?
D: Yah, him and his wife worked at the Pioneer, at the Pioneer Market.
G: Oh no kidding.
D: And when they finally decided they couldn’t compete. Everybody started getting [unclear]
and everybody started going out.
G: Yes, yes.
D: And the kids, they didn’t want it. It was him and his brothers. His brother passed away,
Danny. And then he, he bought the Whipple and he’s been there ever since.
G: Okay. I’ve been there. I didn’t know he owned it.
D: Yah, Paul. Great guy, him and Nancy. Great couple, great family. You know, isn’t it true
that human beings have more value than the cars that go across the (--)
G: Yes, is that what you wrote?
D: Yah, it’s right here. [Reading] What can we do about this? Do the same thing that we did a
week ago. Let’s all go downtown to the meeting on the 27th when it’s going to be decided if not,
if the Connector is going to be built.
G: Right, right.
D: Let’s all go down there. Let’s bring our friends, our families.
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�G: It goes on down here.
D: Yah. We all need to go down there so we can help and stop this. I used to call it highway
sometimes, the Connector to be built. Our lives are set. Hear our families again. This is about
the same thing kind of, copies. [Reading from documents] Yah, they kind of overlapped.
G: Let me ask you though, is there anything else you want to say about the article and any other
points you want to make?
D: No, that’s about (--) You got the idea of what I said.
G: Yah, very good. And so apart from Manuel Figuera, were there other men or women? Were
there any women who were involved that you recall in this opposition? Was it mostly, you
know, guys like Manuel?
D: No, it was Manuel, but it was Eddie Santos, Joseph Camara. Mostly like the Board of
Directors of the Portuguese American Center.
G: Okay. Okay.
D: Women wise I would say Gladys Picanso, because she was very well-known and respected in
the community too.
G: Yes. Yes. So she was a key figure too in the opposition.
D: Yes, but the leadership came from Father Silva.
G: Yes, it really did. It came from Father Silva?
D: Yes it did. He pushed. He pushed. He didn’t like to be upfront. Like I’m pretty sure I did
this because of him. He told me to do it.
G: Oh no kidding.
D: Because he wouldn’t do it.
G: I see. Okay.
D: He was there.
G: He was there?
D: He was there.
G: But he wanted you to be (--)
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�D: Yah, because I was the one, at that time I was already doing the readings in Portuguese at
mass.
G: Oh.
D: Because he started late, that you know, the second council that allowed the (--) To do, say the
mass in Portuguese, he started it late. He started in the early [19]70s.
G: Oh, okay.
D: He used to do everything in Latin. [Both laugh]
G: Before Vatican II.
D: Yah, before Vatican II. And it was, it was kind of, in the late 60s it was kind of tough for
him to change, but he changed.
G: Yes. That’s interesting.
D: Yes, yes.
G: Yah, so he changed.
D: Yah, he changed.
G: But you helped (--)
D: I would say he was the (--) For the neighborhood there, him and other, and other leaders of
like other communities, because there was a lot of Polish people around that area too.
G: Yes, there were Polish people, yes.
D: And he was kind of the central (--) At any social organization, like there was the Italian Club
there too in Central Street.
G: Yah, right.
D: All those people, everybody just kind of, the whole neighborhood got together.
G: Yes, okay. Okay. Well that’s interesting, because I wanted to ask you too, it really, it
required (--) To defeat the Connector it required (--)
D: One of the individuals that did the most to stop the Connector was Ray Rourke. I don’t (--) I
think he was a City Councilor at that time.
G: Yah, okay. So I was going to say it required alliances across ethnic identity right?
16
�D: Yes. Mr. Rourke, even more than Father Silva, was the big pusher too, the big force behind
the “Stop the Connector” movement.
G: Do you remember, was Dick Howe Sr. also? Do you remember him as being involved in
fighting?
D: I don’t even (--) Was he in the city council in those days?
G: He was.
D: I, see that, I (--)
G: But you remember Rourke and Brenden Fleming.
D: I remember, not as much to the Connector now that I see his picture here.
G: Yah, okay, but (--)
D: I don’t even know. Was he a city councilor?
G: He was a city councilor, yah.
D: Because I know he was at one of the big affairs for our church. He was the mayor.
G: But that’s interesting. You said that Rourke was really (--)
D: Ray Rourke.
G: Yah, you remember him as being (--)
D: Mr. Rourke was, because he lived in Back Central Street, Lawrence, somewhere on
Lawrence Street back there.
G: Okay.
D: He was, and he knew all the, Eddie Santos, and the Camaras, and the Costas.
G: Oh okay.
D: He knew all of these people knew him.
G: Yes.
D: And he was, he was the force. The force [unclear].
17
�G: So in some ways he represented the Portuguese Community in city council.
D: Yes he did. Yah, he kind of did, yah. And after him was [city council member an later
mayor of Lowell] Tarsy Poulios you know. [Both laugh]
G: Yes, I remember Tarsy.
D: Yah, but Mr. Rourke was up to the [Sampson] Connector Mr. Rourke was always involved.
In fact they tried a second time to put the Connector through.
G: Yes. Yes.
D: And Mr. Rourke at that time, I think he was Secretary of Transportation. And he had enough
pull then to squash the Lowell politicians that wanted that done.
G: Yes.
D: I don’t recall who the governor was, but I remember them, he’s coming to one of our
meetings to say, “Do not worry. It will never go through this community again. I’ll make sure
of that.”
G: Okay.
D: With the governor [Francis Sargent]. (G: Interesting, yah) Somehow, whatever they did, I
don’t know. Everything has to be legal. Forget the Connector.
G: It must have been Dukakis right, or maybe even before Dukakis?
D: Probably before Dukakis.
G: Okay. All right. Let me ask you, just to shift gears a little bit, two things. One, you don’t
remember the Lowell, the Communicator Newspaper, do you, or who?
D: No, I really don’t. I don’t.
G: Okay. That’s okay.
D: But in those days I already read (--) I used to buy the paper every day, because that’s how I
picked, you know.
G: Well you know what? Interestingly, this was (--)
D: Better my English with that.
18
�G: This was often in stark opposition to the Lowell Sun. That’s one of the interesting things
about his newspaper. Virtually everything the Lowell Sun supported (D: Oh, they were against)
the Communicator opposed.
D: I’m surprised I don’t have any copies. I was looking through my attic. I don’t have any of
that stuff, because at the time I was living at my parents’ house. So I couldn’t carry everything
with me all of the time.
G: I’d be glad, if you want I’ll make you a (--) I’ll send you (--) I sent your sister a file, a pdf
electronic version of this. I can send it to you if you’d like?
D: Yah, if you don’t mind.
G: I’d be glad too, sure.
D: I’d appreciate it.
G: So the other thing is, again, changing gears a little bit. You were a young man at this time.
And as far as you and your others of your generation, what did, did Lowell have much to offer in
terms of jobs, or finding a partner, or you know, dating, or?
D: There were lots of jobs. I mean there were factories everywhere. There were like six or
seven shoe factories. The dress factories. Shirt factories. Pajama factories. The Wannalancit
Textile, Lowell Manufacturing. There was the Commodore Food, processing food, fish.
Commodore Foods processed fish.
G: Yes, yes.
D: Like Talapia, you know, fish would come in. They’d process all of that. (G: I see) Can it
and everything. There was lots of jobs. And you know, there was the church, which is you
know, if you look around Lowell, where there is a church there is a community.
G: Yes.
D: And we were lucky enough that the people before us, when we came our church was built.
social clubs were built. The Holy Ghost [Park] was built. And everybody hung around together.
There would be a couple of affairs at the Holy Ghost, and that was it. That’s what everybody
did.
G: Apart from the Lowell Connector, the opposition to that, were there other issues in Lowell at
the time that you were involved with, or that the younger generation was active in to make some
change in the city, or not so much?
D: No, not at all. Like I said before, we never got into politics.
19
�G: Okay, because I was going to ask you. Interestingly enough, in the early [19]70s just about
the same time there was a movement to have rent control in Lowell. And you know, obviously
this affected a lot of lower income people and there were, you know, a number of large land
holders in Lowell, landlords, Greek, Portuguese, the Silva Brothers.
D: Yah, Silva Brothers owned a lot of (--)
G: Of course Louis Saab.
D: Yah, they owned a lot of property.
G: They owned a lot of property and you can imagine they fought this initiative tooth and nail.
D: Again, people might, we might have been involved at that time if it’s what you say, late
[19]70?
G: This was like [19]70-74.
D: [19]70 to (--) At that time again, it would have been through the same process, through the
Eddie Santos, the Santos Family, the Costas, the Camaras, you know, they were kind of (--) The
newer immigrants were getting involved. Little by little they were getting involved in this stuff,
(G: Okay) but they were never, we were never politically (--) We would do phone, phone banks
out of the Portuguese-American Center. We’d take turns like an hour every other day when
there were elections.
G: Oh really?
D: And call the people that, Portuguese people that would use the words citizens, that could vote
and remind them to vote.
G: I see. Now did they tend to be more Democratic than Republican, or?
D: Oh yah, they loved Kennedy. They loved Kennedy.
G: Of course. So they tended to be?
D: And they still to this day.
G: Yes.
D: To this day.
G: But those involved in making phone calls and things, they tended to be Democratic and not
Republican, is that?
D: I would say so.
20
�G: Okay.
D: I would say most of them, yes. And if there was an issue that we wanted the, a city, probably
at that time we did call people just taking the list. Father [de]Silva would provide us the list of
people from the church and the club who’d have the membership. And you know, everybody
had a phone, and the phone was in the phonebook. So we just, you take that street, I take this
street and we can (--)
G: So for example, like a local thing like to improve a local school in Back Central, you might
get people to call?
D: Yes, because Camara, Joseph Camara, he’s still alive, he was a school teacher. (G: Yes,
yes) He was a school teacher. Eddie Santos was a mailman, you know, and Leo Sousa was a
mailman. And Mendes was a police officer, you know? So all of these people were the ones,
you know.
G: Yes. They knew how city hall worked. So yes.
D: And Mr. Vieira was the attorney. Everybody new Mr.Vieira because he spoke Portuguese.
His parents were from Madeira.
G: Yes, he was an important guy too, wasn’t he?
D: Yah, yah, because he, you know, as a community.
G: Let me ask you, did you (--) The only person, Portuguese person I found, I’m sure there were
others, but who supported this rent control was a fellow named Joseph Mello, Jr. Joe Mello, M E
L L O.
D: Joe Mello, or John?
G: Joe Mello. Joseph.
D: Joe.
G: Joseph. Well that’s his, you know, given name. But he was also the secretary of the Lowell
Central Labor Council, and he was the Head of the Clerks, the Local Clerks Union.
D: Those individuals didn’t hang around with us.
G: Okay. He would have been a bit older than you.
D: Yah, but he wouldn’t hang around with us.
G: Why do you say that?
21
�D: Yah, there was, there was a lot of people that kind of (--) The community had kind of two
people. The people that went to church and hung around the church and welcome. Immigrants,
we had a hard time fitting into community. It wasn’t as easy just as walking in.
G: Interesting, yes.
D: I mean the church is fine, but then when you try to get into the organizations, that’s my land,
that’s my thing. I did this. I built this. What are you guys doing in here?
G: So it was harder to break in?
D: Yes, it was very hard. Very, very, very, hard.
G: Yah, right.
D: Very hard. I was lucky enough because of all the work I did through the church, you know,
teaching Sunday school, and getting involved in the festivities, and all that stuff.
G: Again, so even within the Portuguese Community it was hard to break in to some of those
established clubs.
D: Yah, but there was a lot of people that were born here wouldn’t care much for the
newcomers.
G: I see.
D: And I’m saying if this gentleman that you’re mentioning, he was a union guy. Forget it. He
wouldn’t (--) I don’t recall him. I know Mellos, but he wasn’t one of the neighborhood, you
know? He wasn’t one of us.
G: Well let me, just quickly about trade unionism, because you know, back in the 60s unions
were still relatively strong in Lowell.
D: Yah, I fought the union. Again, in Paris Shoe they tried to get in there.
G: Yes, yes.
D: And because of the large amount of Portuguese people we, they lost. They didn’t get in.
G: What role did the Portuguese people play in defeating the union dry?
D: I just told everybody that it was no good.
G: Okay, okay.
22
�D: You don’t want that because you do what (--) You know, you pay them a fee.
G: Yes, a dues.
D: And you do what you’re told.
G: An annual dues, yes.
D: Yah, you know, you do what you’re told. You do what you’re told. You know, and it
doesn’t matter, you all make the same money. Nobody gets, nobody makes more money than
them.
G: What? Do you remember when was the union trying to break into the shoe factory?
D: Well they tried all of the shoe factories. (G: Yes) And I don’t know if Simon Shoe, if they
got into Simon Shoe, or Lowell Shoe. I don’t think they got into any shoe factory.
G: Yes.
D: But they were trying very hard at Paris, because they had a lot of employees.
G: Yes.
D: But they (--) I don’t recall the time but it’s probably at that same time that you, that you were
mentioning.
G: Let me ask you too, because of the you know, Salazar and then that regime was ousted, there
must have been (--) I gather that most of the Portuguese community were very glad to see him
out. Is that fair to say?
D: I don’t, no. I don’t think. No. The way the Portuguese people were brought up in our
country, you respect authority. You respect the people that are in charge. You respect your
elders. You respect the people in charge. We didn’t know any better. I mean it’s just like
growing up in Cuba and Castro. That’s what you know, that’s what it is.
G: I see.
D: And that’s what we knew. Because like when I lived overseas that was in the village, one of
the largest villages on the island, maybe four or five people had a radio. It was the rich people
that owned the vineyards or the, you know, the land, most of the land where they grew the corn
and the wheat.
G: Yes.
23
�D: Those were the people that had radios. When my paternal grandfather passed away I guess
they split up whatever he had, and my father had enough money to buy a radio. So we bought a
Grundig. [Laughs]
G: What was it called?
D: A Grundig? G R U N D I G, (G: Okay) a Grundig. It was a German radio, short wave.
Short wave.
G: Grundig, yah, okay.
D: And when he came to the country he sold it for the same money that he bought it, that he
paid for it. That’s how good the thing was.
G: Yes.
D: He’d listen to music. Listen to the news.
G: Yah, but I gathered when Salazar was defeated, when he was ousted in the military
dictatorship group (--)
D: We, most of the Lowell Community had been out of there for ten years.
G: Yes, so did it mean as much then?
D: No.
G: No, it didn’t. Okay.
D: I mean I went back a year after the revolution in ’75. I had been here for nine or ten years. I
went back. I could not believe the way the kids that went to school with me, the way that my
uncles, the way that every kid spoke about politics. In one year those (--) And that one year of
the revolution, how the mentality of the person that couldn’t even read or write, how it changed.
G: How did it change?
D: Oh unbelievable. I mean they, they, because they wanted, they wanted everything now,
because you know, he was gone, Salazar. To them it was worth a lot more than to us here.
G: To people here, yes. Yes.
D: Because we, you know, we come here and we struggle here (--)
Interview ends
24
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
UMass Lowell Portuguese American Oral Histories [1985-2018]
Description
An account of the resource
These oral histories with Portuguese immigrants and their descendants in the Greater Lowell area were conducted between 1985-2016. Topics covered include the experience of immigration, working conditions, family life, and more. These oral histories were funded by the Lowell National Historical Park, the American Folklife Center, and UMass Lowell.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Azorean Americans
Children of immigrants
Cultural assimilation
Mills and mill-work
Portuguese American women
Format
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PDF
Language
A language of the resource
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Document
Source
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All items can be found at the Center for Lowell History in Lowell, MA.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
UMass Lowell, Center for Lowell History
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copyright - Educational Use Permitted: This Item is protected by copyright and/or related rights. You are free to use this Item in any way that is permitted by the copyright and related rights legislation that applies to your use. In addition, no permission is required from the rights-holder(s) for educational uses. For other uses, you need to obtain permission from the rights-holder(s).
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1985-2018
Text
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text.
Participants
Names of individuals or groups participating in the event
Joseph Camara
Manuel Figuera
Fr. DeSilva
Eddie Santos
Paul Silva
Dublin Core
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Title
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Dimas Espinola Oral History Interview
Description
An account of the resource
<p><strong>Oral History Interview with Dimas Espinola, October 19, 2017</strong></p>
<p><strong>Biographical Note:</strong></p>
<p>Born on the Azorean island of Terceira, in the village of Biscoitos, in 1950; Dimas Espinola immigrated with his family to the United States in the late 1960s, settling in Lowell’s “Back Central” (predominately Portuguese) neighborhood; his father, formerly a furniture maker in Biscoitos, obtained a job as a loom fixer in the Wannalancit Mills; his mother worked in a shoe factory; Mr. Espinola received his formal education in schools on Terceira and, upon arriving in Lowell, he secured a work permit and, at nearly 17 years of age, he was employed in a manufacturing job in the Paris shoe factory on Bridge Street; at the same time Mr. Dimas, a communicant at St. Anthony’s Church, began working closely with the pastor, Rev. John F. deSilva; among his activities was translating English for Portuguese members of the community, which included various issues affecting the neighborhood, including a state-proposed extension of the Lowell Connector highway that threatened many homes and businesses in the “Back Central” neighborhood; in addition to his community activism and work with the church, Mr. Dimas also became involved with the Portuguese-American Center (and its soccer team), as well as the Holy Ghost Society; he remained in the shoe industry for many years, becoming a foreman and factory manager.</p>
<p><strong>Scope and Contents:</strong></p>
<p>Interview conducted by consulting historian Gray Fitzsimons; a large part of this interview focuses on the organized opposition (and Mr. Espinola’s role in this opposition) to the Lowell Connector highway extension in the early 1970s and the threat of demolition of a large section of the “Back Central” neighborhood; it also contains some information on the family background of Mr. Dimas, the family’s immigrating from the Terceira to the United States, the working lives of the Espinola family in Lowell’s shoe factories in the 1970s and 1980s, as well as observations on the various businesses and cultures that would have been gravely impaired had the highway extension been constructed.</p>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Fitzsimons, Gray
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
UMass Lowell, Center for Lowell History
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-19
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Espinola, Dimas
Format
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PDF
Language
A language of the resource
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Espinola_OH
Subject
The topic of the resource
Azorean Americans
Cultural assimilation
Civic leaders
Portuguese language
Factories
Community development, Urban
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Terceira Island (Azores)
Lowell (Mass.)
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copyright - Educational Use Permitted: This Item is protected by copyright and/or related rights. You are free to use this Item in any way that is permitted by the copyright and related rights legislation that applies to your use. In addition, no permission is required from the rights-holder(s) for educational uses. For other uses, you need to obtain permission from the rights-holder(s).
DeMoulas Store
Lowell Connector
Memórias: Preserving the Stories of Lowell's Portuguese Community
Paris Shoe Factory
Pioneer Quality Market
Portuguese American Center (Lowell, M.A.)
Saint Anthony's Church (Lowell, MA)
Whipple Café
-
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9fe8567ea8701bb9b62c67c9dadf5698
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
UMass Lowell Portuguese American Oral Histories [1985-2018]
Description
An account of the resource
These oral histories with Portuguese immigrants and their descendants in the Greater Lowell area were conducted between 1985-2016. Topics covered include the experience of immigration, working conditions, family life, and more. These oral histories were funded by the Lowell National Historical Park, the American Folklife Center, and UMass Lowell.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Azorean Americans
Children of immigrants
Cultural assimilation
Mills and mill-work
Portuguese American women
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
PDF
Language
A language of the resource
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Document
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
All items can be found at the Center for Lowell History in Lowell, MA.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
UMass Lowell, Center for Lowell History
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copyright - Educational Use Permitted: This Item is protected by copyright and/or related rights. You are free to use this Item in any way that is permitted by the copyright and related rights legislation that applies to your use. In addition, no permission is required from the rights-holder(s) for educational uses. For other uses, you need to obtain permission from the rights-holder(s).
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1985-2018
Text
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text.
Participants
Names of individuals or groups participating in the event
Belarmino Leite
Frannie Furtado
Eddie Silva
Fr. Grillo
Mary Leite
Richie DeFreitas
Melba Leite
Melba MacLeod
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
John Leite Oral History Interview #1
Subject
The topic of the resource
Azorean Americans
Children of immigrants
Immigrant families
Music
Music--Portuguese influences
Instrumentation and orchestration (Band)
Mills and mill-work
Community organization
Civic leaders
Boardinghouses
Veterans
Description
An account of the resource
First part of oral history interview with John Leite on August 10, 1999.<br /><br /><strong>Biographical Note:<br /></strong>Born in Manchester, New Hampshire, in 1933; parents from Graciosa, Azores, immigrated to the U.S. ca. 1926; both parents worked in textile mills in Manchester and Lowell; father a loom fixer, mother a spinner; they settled permanently in Lowell ca. 1936; members of St. Anthony Catholic Church, they had three daughters and one son, John J. who was educated in Lowell’s public schools; his father was a trombonist who played in and managed Lowell’s Portuguese Colonial Band; Mr. Leite joined the band as boy, playing the trumpet and later the trombone; after serving in the U.S. Army in post-war Europe, he returned home and matriculated at Lowell State Teachers’ College; after graduating from the college he taught in the area’s public schools, performed as a professional trombonist in well-known local bands, and formed his own band; beginning in the 1970s Mr. Leite became secretary/treasurer of the Lowell local of the American Federation of Musicians (AFM), AFL-CIO, and after its merger with other locals in 1995, he was elected president of AFM Local 300.<strong><br /><br /></strong><strong>Scope and Contents:<br /></strong>Interview conducted by Gray Fitzsimons. Mr. Leite discusses growing up in Manchester, NH, his parents' journey to the US, mill work, work on local farms, elementary school memories, how he fell into music, playing with the Portuguese Colonial Band, time spent in the military band, education at ULowell, Music Union, experience with multiple bands and as back-up horns.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Fitzsimons, Gray
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
UMass Lowell, Center for Lowell History
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1999-08-10
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Leite, John
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copyright - Educational Use Permitted: This Item is protected by copyright and/or related rights. You are free to use this Item in any way that is permitted by the copyright and related rights legislation that applies to your use. In addition, no permission is required from the rights-holder(s) for educational uses. For other uses, you need to obtain permission from the rights-holder(s).
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
PDF
Language
A language of the resource
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Lowell (Mass.)
Manchester (N.H.)
After the Last Generation: Lowell's Textile Workers, 1958-1998
Avila's Farm
Lincoln School
Lowell High School
Merrimack Mill
Portuguese Colonial Band
Saint Anthony's Church (Lowell, MA)
Spinney's Garage
United Plastic
-
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a8b09e39f65b399e68bccf880f06332f
PDF Text
Text
UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
Portuguese American Digital Archive
Oral History Project
INFORMANT: DR. HELENA SANTOS
INTERVIEWER: DR. GRAY FITZSIMONS, Research Associate, UML, Saab Center for Portuguese Studies
NICOLE TANTUM, Archivist, UML Libraries
DATE: NOVEMBER 3, 2022
H=HELENA
G=GRAY
N=NICOLE
H: Let me ask you a question, or say something. I was just going to say, you know, when I saw the
article two years ago, I was very interested in getting a couple of things I had to you. And then as we
talked it sounded like it could get more involved. And I don’t want you to feel any pressure. You know,
I’m still going to give you those few things that I have. If you want to do more about my family, that’s
great. I had this big dream about writing my parents’ story anyway.
G: That’s wonderful. So, here’s the thing. We are definitely interested in your career in Hudson as an
educator, and especially with, you know, the ESL Program. But we’re also interested in your family
history, because, you know, it actually will help contextualize your career in Hudson as well.
H: You know what’s best. Let’s go from there.
N: So, first, before we get into everything, I would just love to hear a little bit more, just very basic, you
know, with the oral history we’re going to go into more detail, but just about like your family, your
parents and when they came here and anything.
H: Sure, sure. So, my parents have a little, a little odd story way back, in that it was my grandparents on
my mother’s side, that first came to the United States early 1900s. So, my mother was born in the
United States.
N: Oh wow! Okay.
H: Okay. She was born in 1922. And at nine months they returned to Portugal.
N: Interesting.
H: And again, it’s Portugal. My family is from Evora De Alcobaca, on the Continent. So, we are not
Azorean.
�N: Yah, my family is from the Continent too.
H: Oh, okay.
N: It’s rare. Most people are Azoreans, but nice to meet.
H: Yes. Right.
N: Where is the town? Is that town in the north?
H: It’s in Estremadura. So, it’s, do you know Fatima?
N: Yes.
H: Okay, so you know, Nazare?
N: Yes. Unfortunately, I’ve never been out there.
H: So, it’s a little town. They used to walk to Nazare to go to the market to sell.
N: Oh wow! That’s amazing.
H: So, it’s just north of there, of Lisbon. So, as I say, my mother was born in the United States. So, she
was an American citizen. So, she came with, [my grandparents]went back with three children, and the
two oldest ones died. So, they actually thought she was the one who was going to die, because she was
nine months old. She was just a baby. And she’s the one that survived.
N: They got sick, the other two kids?
H: So, we’re not sure if it was the flu, right, or my mother used the word gargudilho. I can’t even say it.
I can’t remember what it was. I looked it up. I’ve asked. No one can tell me what it is. I thought it
might have been smallpox. I’m not sure, but the two children passed away, and she survived. They
were farmers. And she married in Evora. She had my sister in Evora. And then my father decided that
he wanted to come to the United States. So, that’s how they came back, right.
N: Yah. So that’s how they got here. Okay.
H: So, my grandfather, her father, didn’t want them to come. Even though he had been back and forth,
and back and forth [from Portugal to the US a couple of times]. You know, he had lived in Ludlow. He
had lived in Springfield. He had lived in upper state New York. He worked on the trains. He didn’t want
her to go. The daughter, the oldest daughter of eight [surviving] children. He wouldn’t want her to
come. So, unfortunately, he got very sick and died too. And once he died, she was free to go. So, then
she came in 1952.
N: Okay.
H: And she had to come first as the American citizen.
N: Right.
H: And leave her daughter, and leave her husband, and arrange all the paperwork and everything, for
them to come.
G: I see.
H: So, I think she came in March of 1952, and he came in November [1952]. So, a long time.
2
�N: Yes, for them to be [apart], because they had one child at that point.
H: They had one child at that time. And my sister turned four on the boat.
N: Oh, cool.
H: So, I know the dates.
N: Yes, it’s so interesting. That’s awesome.
G: So, they took a ship?
H: They each took a ship. And my mother tells stories of, you know, my mother used to tell stories of
everybody getting sick on the ship. And people being, you know, really, desperately alone, and how sad
that was. And it took two weeks. And just terrible, terrible voyages, you know.
N: Yes, and it’s harder to get along too.
G: So, would they have arrived in New York, or in Boston?
H: I can verify all of this. My sister has more records than I do. I think my mother came to New York,
and was met there by a godparent, who had come to the States. Who had been friendly with my
grandparents, you know. And he took her back to Ludlow. And they set her up in a little room house
kind of thing. And she lived and worked. She got a job, and she lived there until my parents came. And
then my father came, I think he came to Rhode Island for some reason. Or maybe that was my
grandmother. I can’t remember. [He came to NY also].
N: We have Ancestry back in the library. I can find all of that for you.
H: Yes, I can find that too.
N: And then they lived in Ludlow? Were you raised there?
H: Yah, so, I was born in Ludlow too. Yah, my mother was born in Ludlow, and I was born at Ludlow
Hospital. Let’s see. We lived on Franklin Street, in an apartment above another Portuguese family.
That was when I was a little baby. And then they moved to Joy Street.
N: Because there’s a big Portuguese Community. I’ve met many people from there. I’ve never been
there, but I know.
H: They have a big feast on Labor Day weekend. So, it’s a big community. And it’s mostly, well it’s
interesting. There’s a lot of people from the north.
N: Interesting. Oh, my goodness.
H: So, the majority of people are from the north of Portugal.
N: That’s where my family is from. I really have to get out there now.
H: But there’s a good population from the southern part.
N: Okay.
H: And then there’s Chicopee, which has a bigger portion of people from the southern part. And when
we say south, we’re only talking the Lisbon area. We’re not talking south in the Algarve. . So, then they
3
�moved to Joy Street for a couple of years. And then they moved. They bought a house on Berkshire
Street, and that’s where I grew up.
N: And then you eventually worked in Hudson, when you were, as part of your career?
H: So, I have to tell you. One of the, I think, striking things about my story, and this is always emotional.
So, you know how we are. My mother never went to school. She was the oldest of eight children. And
my father went to, this is the Salazar era , right, where school is, education, was not required. My father
went to school. He was in the fourth year, quarta classe, and that’s when they do the exams, in the
quarta classe . And the teacher was very pleased with him. They wanted to take him [to] the quarta
classe exames , because they got a [financial bonus. The teachers would get a bonus if their students
passed, right, but my grandfather took him out of school, to work. And the teacher went to the house
and asked him to let the boy finish school, and whatever, but he didn’t. So, my parents, you know
[emotional]. It happened so fast. Anyway, the neat thing is that they had two older daughters and a
younger boy, right? And the expectation was that my brother would go to college [, which he did. And
the girls would finish high school. And my sister finished high school, and they made her go to work.
And then she started taking night classes. And by the time I finished high school, she’s six years older
than I am, I wanted to go to college. I wanted to be a teacher. So, I went to college. We both, I went to
Holyoke Community for a semester, and she was at Holyoke Community. She finished her Associates.
Then we went to UMass Amherst. So, there’s a whole lot of stories around here, not just about me, but
about the way people looked at my parents.
The point I’m trying to make is, that I went on to finish college, get my Masters, and my Doctorate.
[Emotional].
N: Amazing. I’m sure your parents were so proud.
G: Was that all at UMass Amherst?
H: No. I went to UMass Amherst. Then I went to BU in Bilingual Cross-Cultural Counseling. And then I
went to UMass Boston. I got my Doctorate in Higher Ed. So that was, you know, it’s a striking story. It
doesn’t happen very often. And the Portuguese have a reputation for not caring about education.
Right? At least in my generation they did. And there were a lot of people who didn’t. But, you know,
my parents were always supportive.
G: It did seem to change though with, you and I are the same generation, with our generation, where
the Portuguese parents tended to be more interested in education, and having their children certainly
finish high school, and some go on to college. So, I think that was a cultural shift by that time.
H: I think it started even after I left Hudson. You know, my experience in Hudson [was that we had to
struggle to get students to consider college]. My cousins don’t, some of them, the younger ones have a
college degree. I have cousins in Portugal who have Doctorates, but I don’t have cousins in the United
States that do have Doctorates. So, the immigrant experience at that time was very oppressive in some
ways. Right? [To me, one of the most striking aspects about our experience is the fact that my parents
had so little education, yet, all three children have advanced degrees: my older sister has a Bachelor’s
Degree and my younger brother has a Bachelor’s Degree and an MFA. In addition, all three of us became
educators. Within one generation, members of my family made a huge educational leap forward!]
G: Yes.
4
�H: And, but their children. Their children, almost all of them, not all of them, but many of them went to
college. And a couple of them even went, I think, to get, I’ll have to think about that, but I think one or
two may have their Doctorates too.
G: Helena, was Portuguese spoken in your home?
H: Yes.
G: Exclusively? Or was it English and Portuguese?
H: No. That’s another story. You’re good at asking your questions. It’s so funny, because I was
thinking, I didn’t really think about how. I was thinking about you folks. I wasn’t thinking how this was
going to affect me. So, what happened was that my mother and father worked opposite shifts to help
take care of the children. My father went to night school to learn English for a while, on and off,
depending on the shift he was working. And my mother, of course, didn’t, right? Because she was
working fulltime. They were factory workers. And she wanted to spend time with her family. And then
there was that whole thing that she couldn’t read and write, and what was she going to go to school
for? So, there was a point where my father was trying to practice English with me. So, I was little, and I
actually became more dominant in English for a period, you know. And yes, and my mother couldn’t
talk to me very well. So, I actually have this vague memory of being in the pantry, because I was a very
picky eater, and my mother was asking me what I wanted to eat. And I was telling her what I wanted to
eat in English, and she didn’t know what I was saying.
N: Oh wow.
H: So, that was a turning point of sorts. And then we were like getting ready to go to Portugal to visit
for their first time, in 1960. So, I was almost six. So, I was four and a half, five years old when that
happened. And then we didn’t go that year. My sister got Rheumatic Fever. We didn’t go, but my
mother made a rule that we were not going to speak English at home anymore.
N: Oh wow.
H: So, we didn’t. So, by the time I went to Portugal [the next year] I could get by pretty well. You know,
I was still struggling. English was dominant. English was in the neighborhood. You know, that’s why
people call me Helen, you know, in English. I could speak and understand, but we didn’t have any
family, you know, an extended family [at that time]. We knew neighbors and stuff. And then, so it
stayed that way for a long time. And then my brother is almost ten years younger than I am, and we
continued the same idea, except that like, you know, a lot of code-switching happened, right? The
siblings, we would speak English to each other. Literally, we would have that experience of Quando
estou falar para voce, Mae ou Pai, falou em Portugues, and when I turn to talk to you I just, you know,
say, “Look, you know, he just said such and such in English” You know, it was just that kind of fast
switch, code-switching.
N: Yes, it makes sense.
G: So, do you feel that you are fairly fluent in Portuguese as a result of your, in your youth?
H: Yes, because I have a very, I have a heavy [American] accent. I know that. I’ve been told many times.
N: I have that experience.
H: But I also studied Portuguese at UMass Amherst.
5
�N: Okay.
H: So, I did very well in Spanish in high school. They didn’t offer Portuguese. And I wanted to be a
teacher. In ninth grade I was going to teach math. In tenth grade I was going to, I had turned I think
somewhere in there, to Spanish. I was going to be a Spanish teacher, because that was my most favorite
class. And then I was all set to, I was accelerating and came in pretty well in advanced Spanish. And I
was going to go student teach in Bilbao, Spain, early, young. They were going to let me go as a
sophomore. And I got an appendicitis attack.
N: Oh man.
H: So, I had just taken one class in Portuguese, first class in Portuguese at UMass Amherst. Antonio
Andrade was the professor. And I couldn’t travel. So I went back to UMass, and he convinced me to
take more classes. And the rest is history. I became a Portuguese/Spanish Bilingual Education Major.
And I got into bilingual education, which was just, seemed I think, recently introduced at UMass as an
Education Program. So, I got in on that ground level. And I was pretty political. I went to the UMass,
University of Lisbon Program in 1975.
G: Oh, wow.
H: To the summer program. I was there eleven weeks. And by the eleventh week, or by the end of the
summer anyway, people would say, “Are you from the north?”, if I was in the south. And if I was in the
south they’d say, “Are you from the north?” Because they couldn’t place my accent. But at least I had
it.
N: It was a local accent.
H: It was pretty good.
N: That’s so funny.
G: By the way, before I forget, do you know what factory your parents worked in? And was it the same
factory, or were they different?
H: It was several. For a long time, my mother worked at Cromwell Mills in Indian Orchard.
G: Was that a woolen mill?
H: It was certainly [G: textiles] textiles, but they made women’s clothing.
G: Oh, okay.
H: And then they closed. They moved south, and it became Carter’s, and they made children’s clothing.
So, when I was young, she would make clothes for us at home. Get remnants from the factory and stuff.
G: Of course.
H: So, then she stayed at Carter’s. She worked for Carter’s. And then they closed. And then she
worked at a place called (--) Oh no. Then she went to Spaulding and worked at making basketballs.
N: Yes, right. I was like I know that brand.
H: Right? Because I think they’re still there in Springfield.
G: I think so. Yes.
6
�H: And then, or maybe she went to the [Letters]. There was a factory there in Indian Orchard, [they
called it the Letters because they made sew-on cloth letters for things like Varsity sweaters, etc.N: Did
she ever learn English, or she was always (--)
H: She did.
N: Okay.
H: She did. She could get by, you know?
N: Oh wow. Great.
H: And I taught her. I remember teaching her how to write her address. My grandmother came from
Portugal, 1964? When Kennedy opened the immigration laws. Where family could help bring family,
you know. So, she brought (my mother) her mother. That was the easiest. And then, so then she
brought my aunts, her two sisters.
N: Oh okay. So then eventually you had family here.
H: Eventually they brought almost everybody, except for the ones [they believed to be “better off”. So,
my mother’s, one of my mother’s brothers who did very well as a farmer, they didn’t bring him over.
N: Yes, I guess they didn’t need to. He was fine there.
H: He had all the land, everybody’s land he had. And then my father’s two, one brother and one sister,
lived in Lisbon. They had moved to Lisbon. And they lived a good life. And one other sister who also
had a lot of land and did well as a farmer. So, everybody else came. You know, somewhere in there as a
child, I don’t remember the details, someone asked, one of my uncle’s was a barber. He was doing
“fine”. He wanted to come, and he was the first from my father’s side to come.
G: And what factory did your father work in?
H: So, my father worked for Chapman Valve for a long time.
G: Do you know what his position was?
H: He worked [construction for a while, but mostly on the assembly line: he worked polishing the metal
pieces]. And then he went to Moore Drop Forging Co/Easco Tools for a long time. He worked on the
line sharpening the tools. He worked for them a long time. And then for a short period he worked as a
custodian at Chapman Valve. I think it had something to do with the shifts that he wanted to work.
And, but he got bored with that. It wasn’t hard enough, you know. So, he retired from tool making.
G: Yes. It was a huge industry through the valley there.
H: Yes. I have aunts who worked. I had an aunt who worked for Smith and Wesson.
G: Oh, yes.
H: I think the same aunt worked for, as a tobacco farmer, you know, a field hand for a while. All the
kids worked tobaccos in the valley, right? My brother did, but my parents didn’t allow their daughters
to work there. (My parents were very proud of that). The Ludlow Mills had closed and opened so many
times. We lived down the street from, up the street from the Ludlow Mills. But the history of that
factory was, do you know anything about it?
G: A little bit, yes. It kind of mirrored what was happening in Lowell for that matter.
7
�H: Yes. So, I think my grandmother had worked there for a while. And then, they made jute. It was a
huge factory. And then they closed. And then they broke down into different factories. And my aunts,
when they came, they worked there in a bra factory. I worked at a Tampax Factory. I mean, you know,
lots of factories.
N: Yes, lots of different things there.
H: And lots of Portuguese, that’s what they did. They were factory workers.
N: My family came in the 70s. My mom worked in a perfume factory. Now she hates perfume.
H: Here in Lowell?
N: No, in Jersey. They immigrated to Jersey. She can’t smell perfume now. I don’t blame her.
H: No kidding.
G: So, was your work in the Hudson Public School System your first job out of college then, in
education?
H: It was out of college, yes. I had obviously had lots of jobs before that, but I had (--) So, how did I
come to Hudson was one of your questions. So, I had graduated. I had student taught at Cambridge
Rindge and Latin. I wanted to do an urban setting in a bilingual program [for my student teaching]. I
wanted to do one of the best bilingual programs. I don’t know why. I just wanted, I wanted to learn as
much as I could. So, I did that in my last semester. And I had gone an extra semester, because I had
started at Holyoke Community. I had lots of credits, but somehow, you know, I did extra stuff. So, I
graduated in January. So, I applied for a job in Cambridge, and I didn’t get it. And I think it had
something to do with, you know, I was young and nervous, and didn’t do very well in my interview, but I
also think it had something to do with my accent. You know, I wasn’t a native speaker.
G: Right.
H: And, you know, I’m not a native speaker. I’m not, you know, but I consider myself bilingual and
fluent, and I can carry my conversations very well. I can read and write, but just not at a college level,
you know. So, anyway, so I went back home. And I worked at Howard Johnson’s as a waitress for a
while. And decided that I was going to try to get a job overseas, teaching overseas. Wouldn’t that be
exciting? But back then, now you can get a job overseas anywhere, but I would apply for the, you know,
the American schools overseas? You had to have the experience. And I didn’t have any experience
obviously. So, I didn’t get any of those jobs. So, I was applying around, and I went cross country with
my sister that summer. Kept applying, meanwhile, you know, doing stuff.
G: What year was this by the way?
H: This was 1977.
G: Okay.
H: In a small Volks Wagon. So, I am not your typical, a Volks Wagon Bug, not a bus. A bug.
N: That’s so funny.
G: I’ve had one of those once. I did.
H: It was crazy! So yah, we weren’t typical, you know. So, again, I sometimes I think I don’t fit the
norm.
8
�N: No. If anything, we learn there is no, you know norm really, when it comes to learning different
stories and journeys.
H: So, yah, my parents were besides themselves all the time. You know, two women, the girls, right?
N: Yah, their girls driving cross country. Yah, sure.
G: You went out to California?
H: Yah, so we went all the way to California. I had a boyfriend from college that was living out there,
and another friend of ours from Ludlow and college had moved out there. So, we had like, as long as
you knew what you were doing, and had connections.
G: Was this beau Portuguese American, or?
H: She was. No, he wasn’t.
G: Okay.
H: No, he wasn’t. So, I didn’t tell them much about that. But Louisa was out there. So, that was the
saving grace, you know. So anyways. So, I came back, and I still didn’t have a job. And I interviewed in
Providence.
G: In the public schools there?
H: Yup. And I came pretty close, I think. I might have been a finalist if I remember, but I didn’t get that
job either. And then I saw a substitute teacher position in Hudson. And I said, “Hey, it will give me
experience.” In that semester I was working at Howard Johnson’s, I had been substitute teaching in
Ludlow and in Springfield.
G: What grade level?
H: All grades.
G: All grades.
H: Yah. So mostly they put me in middle school, but I was opened to anything.
G: Was this English Language Arts then?
H: When I was substituting?
G: Yes, when you were substituting.
H: In Hudson, or in?
G: In Ludlow.
H: Ludlow and Springfield, any grades. Any subject.
G: Okay, gotcha.
H: You know, I’m not even sure they had a bilingual program. Ludlow was Ludlow, you know. I mean I
don’t remember a bilingual program. And they were, I don’t think they were even in 1977, by the time I
finished, I don’t even think they were offering it as a foreign language just yet. I think I got offered an
opportunity to apply that fall when I was already in Hudson I believe, and I said no.
9
�G: Okay.
H: And I didn’t tell my parents. But I got this substitute teaching position in Hudson. And I actually
commuted for a week from Ludlow to Hudson. And then they turned it into a permanent position.
G: How soon after? Fairly quickly?
H: Yes, within a week they told me they were thinking about it. They liked me I guess, and they turned
it into permanent. I didn’t have to apply or anything.
G: And so again, that was middle school?
H: That was high school.
G: Oh, high school.
H: Which is what I wanted. I had secondary certification. You know, I had Bilingual, Portuguese,
Portuguese as a Foreign Language. There was no ESL [certification] at the time. Portuguese Bilingual. I
think I had all of those. I had passed my exams.
G: So, what were you teaching at the high school?
H: So, I was hired to teach, right away I was teaching ESL, and one language class, Portuguese Language
class. That was technically part of the bilingual, all the Bilingual Program, but also part of Foreign
Language. So, someone could take that class if they wanted. It was sort of a basic level. But what it
really was, was a Heritage Language Class. Everybody was Portuguese, you know. Everybody in my class
was Portuguese. And they either had come from Portugal and weren’t very literate, or they had been
brought up here. So, that’s what the Portuguese class I taught. And then [Denis Frias ] and Joaquim
Ferro taught other language classes.
G: Yes, interesting.
H: And I taught all the ESL {classes]. So, I taught [ESL I, II, III, IV, Reading I and Reading II. I had [seven,
including one Portuguese language class] preps.
N: One big workload.
G: So, did Hudson have a reputation of being somewhat cutting edge in the sense of, or not so much?
H: So, it was better than Ludlow, but it wasn’t as good as Cambridge. So, it was somewhere in the
middle in my view, and my sense from what I, you know, people I talked to, it was in the middle.
G: Yes, but the big difference between Cambridge and Hudson was Portuguese in Hudson. Correct?
H: Well no. Cambridge was Portuguese.
G: Right, but I mean the high school really was dominant Portuguese would you say?
H: In Hudson?
G: In Hudson.
H: Oh, that’s a good question. No, I wouldn’t say that.
G: Okay.
10
�H: No, I wouldn’t say that. There were certainly a lot of Portuguese. In fact, the Bilingual Program from
77 to the time I left grew quite a bit. My classes grew from, I think, you know, a small handful in the
advanced class to twentyish, thirtyish. And of course, there was always the pressure to mainstream. So,
my advanced class was always, you know, I had to sort of navigate keeping them there, you know,
because it’s for their benefit. And I have, you know, I have some pictures that, you know, will reflect a
little bit of that, I think.
N: Yah, we can start looking at some of the stuff if you want.
G: Did you move to Hudson by that time?
H: I lived in Marlborough.
G: Okay.
H: So, my parents knew somebody in Hudson, and they were supposed to help me get acclimated. And
they did, you know, a little bit, but I was pretty independent. And I got myself an apartment in
Marlborough, which suited me just fine. Because frankly, at that age, I didn’t want to be under the
watchful eyes of the Hudson community, right?
G: Of course.
H: So, I had a studio apartment in Marlborough for about a year or so, two years maybe? And then
there was another teacher that came in. Her name was Theresa Gibbons, who was in the Bilingual
Program too. It was growing, you know, it was definitely growing. And we got an apartment together in
Marlborough also. And I met my husband, and he was from Hudson. So, he’s an American.
G: No Portuguese in his blood?
H: No, no, and that wasn’t, you know, that wasn’t intentional. It just worked out that way. I mean I
wasn’t opposed to marrying someone Portuguese. God, no, but you know. Yah, so we met. And he was
substitute teaching, you know. He had grown up in Hudson. So, I lived there for a long time in
Marlborough, and the whole time I was teaching in Hudson.
N: And he was also teaching in Hudson? Did he end up like staying there?
H: No, at the time he was in Graduate School in Theater, at Brandeis.
N: Wow.
H: So, like I said, it’s not your typical path. My parents never quite understood what he did for a living.
They never understood a lot of things, you know, I mean in a kind way. When I talked about my
Doctorate I'd say, “I have to write a book.” My mother could understand that. “I have to write a book.”
Okay. So, when the book was done, I was done. But back to, yah, so, my husband was in Graduate
School at Brandeis, and still living in Hudson for a little while. And then he lived in Waltham. And then
he got a job in Boston. He worked at the Boston Shakespeare Company for a while. And then, oh, you
know, he did a lot of odd jobs. Tried to get into New York. Didn’t make it. It didn’t work out that way.
Worked at the Medieval Manor. Started teaching parttime at UMass Boston. And still doing some
theater. Worked at the Merrimack.
G: Repertory? Did he really?
H: Yes, did a couple of shows up here.
11
�G: Oh, no kidding.
H: You know, just did what he could, and then ended up we got married in 1984. We moved to
Northborough. He was working at UMass. That turned into a fulltime position. We moved to
Stoughton. Oh, and then he got a job. And then 1986 I switched from Hudson to Bridgewater State
University. And he was still at UMass Boston. We were in Stoughton. Then he got a job at Wheaton
somewhere in there, 1990 I’m trying to think of the order of things, but. Oh, we went back to, we went
to Roslindale. We moved back up to Roslindale for a while. We lived there for several years. So, he was
taking the train. And then my son was born in 1992. And then he got, David got a job at Wheaton, and
we moved to, that’s when we moved to Stoughton. No, I’m right. I was right. Then we moved to
Halifax, because it was easier for us to commute to Wheaton and Bridgewater.
G: Helena, actually, before we look at these pictures, I have just one other question I have relating to
Hudson. And I just wondered what was your initial impressions of Portuguese Community and Culture
in Hudson, and how did it differ from Ludlow for example?
H: Yah, so I thought about that, because I saw the question. And I think, I think the main difference is
that they were even more provincial than (G: In Hudson) in Hudson than Ludlow. I thought Ludlow was,
because a lot of what happens with immigrants, as you know, is that they freeze at the time of their
immigration, right. So, my parents came in 1952, and there was a community, there were a lot of
people that were of that generation. So, by the time 1960s came along, they were still living in the
fifties, Portuguese style, right? You follow me?
G: Yes.
H: Okay. So, there was always that tension. And understanding it didn’t make a difference. You’re still
a teenager, you know. In Hudson, it was 1977, when I started and 1986 when I left, and I had the
experience- I took three field trips, me and the teachers from Hudson, took the bilingual students to
New York City. And for some of them, it was their first time on an escalator, let alone seeing, you know,
the World Trade Center, right, which was still there at the time. And we would go to the top of it. So,
these people, their world view was locked into this really, really, tiny space. Some of them were from
Rabo de Peixe, which I never went to, but they would talk about it like it was the poorest town in Santa
Maria, you know, and that’s where some of my students were from. So, they had no exposure to very
much at all. So, you were dealing with someone who had that experience, or you know, you treated
everybody the same, but it was, the tension on was a little bit stronger. So that’s the big difference that
I would say. The community itself was, as much as they, you know, Portuguese people, like any, like
Americans, you know, if you’re in the north, you’re the south, you’re from Boston, you’re from New
York, you know, we all think we’re from the better place, right? You know, and in Hudson you had Santa
Maria verses Sao Miguel, right. And God forbid you were from the continent, right?
G: Well, that’s the interesting thing, because one thing that is unique about Hudson is the large size of
Azoreans from Santa Maria.
H: Marineses, they were definitely the majority.
G: I think it’s unlike any other community, town, or city in the United States. So that must have been
striking to you as well when you arrived in Hudson.
H: It was interesting, especially since there it was so small. I had a little bit of trouble with the
Micalense accent actually?
G: Did you?
12
�H: So, I was always thinking about that, you know. I was thinking about that more, and the history of
that. And nobody really talked about why they spoke like that, with a French accent. And my
knowledge of the history was that it had to do with the prison that was there in Sao Miguel, right, the
French prison that the Portuguese allowed them to stay to use the land. But anyway, nobody ever
talked about that stuff.
G: Really? Is that right?
H: So, and you know, I certainly had to deal with not being from the Azores, not being a native speaker,
and being not from Hudson, you know. So, all of those issues were more important, more in my face,
than the fact that everybody was from Sao Miquel, because in my experience [in Ludlow] there were a
lot of people from, they all said they were from Chaves in Tras-os-Montes. Of course, they weren’t all
from Chaves. You know, they were from different little villages. But at least my experience was that,
oh, they were all from you know, that area. So, I knew what that meant. You know, my parents were
from Evora de Alcobaca. There weren’t as many people from Evora De Alcobaca. So, you know, it was
us and them too.
G: So, who were you closest to amongst some of the Hudson Portuguese? I’m assuming some of the
educators.
H: Sure. So, Joaquim Ferr was actually a very supportive and helpful colleague.
G: And where was he from, his family?
H: He was from Faro, Algarve, right. So, and he had a Doctorate. And he taught Special Ed. And, like I
said, he was a very colorful person. So, there were personal things that people would always kind of,
you know, exclude and you know, whatever, use against. Like I said, my language, his personality,
whatever, but he was a very helpful colleague. And so, we worked well together. And then I lived with
Theresa Gibbons. So, we got along very well. My best friend was actually the Special Ed Teacher who is
not Portuguese. She and I met early on, and we hung out a lot. You know, it’s funny. You’re asking me
things I haven’t thought about for a long time, but there were lots of ex-high school teachers. Did you
ever teach in high school?
N: I didn’t, but I have friends who are teachers, and I’m learning a lot through them about the
relationships between teachers. When you’re a kid you don’t think about it.
H: So, there were cliques, right. And some of them are just teenagers grown up, you know, trying.
N: It’s frustrating.
H: It’s very frustrating. Oh God, if we get to those stories. And so, through JoJo, her name was, I got to
know the music teacher, and a bunch of us sort of hung out. Friday afternoons there were always
teachers who wanted to go for drinks. And the groups would change. And different people would get
invited, but there was one Portuguese math teacher that had graduated with me from UMass. She was
from Hudson. She would come sometimes, but that was about it.
G: What was her name?
H: Her name was Maria [Chaves]. Um, what was her name? It will come to me. I brought the
yearbooks for reference. So, I’m sure I can find her name. She didn’t stay very long. She went off to
work at a travel agency. But she, interestingly, you might be interested in talking to her. I lost track with
these people, with her. She left. Her whole family, she was from a big family, worked for a big travel
agency in Boston, and were making a whole lot more money than she was making teaching. So, she
13
�went off to work with them. But I said she graduated with me from UMass, she didn’t. She went to
Harvard. And the reason I said UMass was because she dated someone from UMass. And I gave her a
ride out there a few times on my way home. So, they snatched her up, and hired her, and she came
back to teach for a couple of years, but she didn’t last. But they liked her, you know, the cliquey
teachers liked her interestingly.
G: Did you get to know Doctor Jose Figueredo?
H: So, I knew of him in Cambridge. And a friend of mine from Cambridge was in the Rancho (folk dance)
that he led, [mostly in Cambridge] right. So, I met him a few times. And then I met him a few times in
Hudson. And he was around. He would come to the, you know, the dinners and, you know, sometimes
to the town meetings, the school committee meetings. [He had served on the school committee before I
came to Hudson] And certainly, people spoke of him, and he was definitely very well respected.
G: What were your impressions of him?
H: Oh, just a very nice person. Very smart. Very low-key. You know, he didn’t work in Hudson. So, but
if had he worked in Hudson, I think it would have been a different experience.
G: How so?
H: Because he understood the field, right? And I think I understood the field, but there were a lot of
people that didn’t understand the field.
G: Are you saying within the school system, or just within like the school committee?
H: All.
G: Okay.
H: Right? So, our job [according to the school’s expectations] was to take care of these kids, get them
to learn English, and be done with it, right? And do what you have to do. And there were other people
who were really, much more committed to helping them grow. I mean think about the need for
bilingual education in a town like Hudson. You had some students who, like I said, had never even been
on an escalator, barely gone to school, because they had to take care of the cows or whatever. Most of,
many of them, right, or work at home, and they were in high school. So, bilingual education in theory is
to help them transition into the same level, right?
N: Right.
H: And switch languages so they can learn in English. But the content has to be there. They didn’t have
the content [sometimes]. So, they had to learn the content in their native language, and learn the
English, you know, so that they could continue to learn in English. That takes more than three years.
I’m sorry. Right?
G: Of course.
N: Of course.
H: So, some people understood that. Some people didn’t. So, Jose Figueiredo, again, my impression
was that he was a very well-educated person. I don’t know his personal background from Santa Maria. I
think he was from Santa Maria.
G: He was. Yes.
14
�H: He did a lot. Like, I think I mentioned to you, I found something, and then I couldn’t find it again
online. He did interviews on the radio(and Joaquim was in it). He would write articles for the paper. He
just tried to elevate the presence of the community in a good way.
G: Speaking of radio. So, there was a program that originated in Hudson called Portugal 73. Antonio
Chaves was part of that. Dr. Figueiredo was part of that. I don’t know if you ever listened to it.
H: I didn’t. I don’t remember it. I know of it. Now that you say that I remember that, but I didn’t. And I
don’t know if it was still there in 77.
G: I think it was through the 70s, maybe even into the early 80s.
H: Maybe, yah, and I didn’t.
G: Okay.
H: Sorry.
G: No, it’s just that the other thing interesting about him is that he was very interested in Hudson’s
history. And he even gave a talk. We’re trying to get his papers, which are in the Portuguese Club in
Hudson. Apparently, there are quite a few boxes of his papers, but we’ve had difficulty getting into the
club.
H: That’s so weird. That all makes sense, but I wasn’t really that connected.
G: One quick thing. Nicki and I were in Lawrence not too long ago, at the Portuguese Club, and we were
talking to them about our project, and we had been trying to break into Hudson. I forget which one of
our, one of the fellows at the club said, “Oh, Hudson. They prefer to go their own way.” It’s interesting,
because Lowell and Lawrence are very close. I mean they are very geographically close. And there is a
lot of connections with families, and even with parishes, but there’s not that same close connection
between Lowell and Hudson.
H: In fact, driving up here today, I came up 495 to avoid the traffic. It occurred to me, oh that’s why
they’re doing Hudson. Because I always think of Lowell being so far from the rest of it, you know, rest of
where we are, or I am, or certainly even from Hudson. I took a class at Fitchburg State when I was there.
And it was like, going north, you know, it was a big deal. And I don’t think Hudson thinks of itself being
connected to Lowell, or Lawrence at all. Just like Ludlow, Ludlow and Chicopee for some families, was a
connection, but Ludlow isn’t in and of itself, you know. And I think, it’s interesting Lowell and Lawrence,
you see it that way, but you know Fall River and New Bedford distinguish themselves greatly. And
Cambridge and Somerville, when I was in Cambridge, Somerville was, you know, a world away.
N: Yah, it’s funny how that happened.
H: It’s like, they’re over there. I think it’s just a carryover of, you know, I’m from Santa Maria, you’re
from Sao Miguel, and how you see your community, and the tight knitness of it.
G: Even within Hudson, were there some differences between those from Santa Maria, and Sao Miguel?
H: Yes. You knew. Everybody knew who was from where. Yah, and there were a few people from
Terceira.
G: Were there some from Terceira in Hudson?
H: Yes.
15
�G: Because there’s a big Terceira community here in Lowell.
H: Yes, and the Terceira people, I think thought themselves better than the others, you know.
N: That happens a lot. With all of them I think everyone thinks that.
H: Right? So, it was interesting. You know, I had one student in particular, that sticks out in my mind,
that was from Terceira.
G: Did you go to any of the festas, or any of the special events in Hudson when you were teaching?
H: I went to the Portuguese Parent Advisory Council [activities. The PAC] was very active. Claudinor
Salomao was the [PAC] president while I was there. And they put on a lot of dinners, [scholarship]
fundraising dinners and so forth. And I went to those. Excuse me, I didn’t really go to the festas
because, what’s the big festa? Santo Espirito.
G: Holy Ghost?
H: Yah. First of all we don’t celebrate that, okay.
G: In Portugal?
H: Yah, in Ludlow we didn’t celebrate that. So, it wasn’t a festa that I was used to going to. And it
always falls on Father’s Day, right?
G: Often, yes.
H: So, I was going to Ludlow to my father’s. So, I never went. And even when I worked in Bridgewater,
they had, Bridgewater has a Portuguese Community, right?
G: Yes.
H: I never went, because of the same reason. If I missed Father’s Day, I’d be in big trouble. So, I didn’t
go to Festa de Santo Espirito. And then in Ludlow we had the big festa on Labor Day, which celebrated,
actually celebrated the inauguration of the church, Nossa Senhora de Fatima, [Our Lady of Fatima
Church]
G: Aha, yes! They had that here in Lowell as well. In many communities, right?
H: Yah. So, I went to that. So, I didn’t really go to the festas very much.
G: I was just, because I’m working right now on a, the deadline approach is for an exhibit on Lowell’s
Holy Ghost Society. And I was interested if you had attended any of these festas in Hudson, what your
impressions were as kind of an outsider, even though you’re Portuguese.
H: Sorry.
G: That’s okay.
H: Yah, I never went to one. And I went to the Portuguese Club. I have a picture of a field trip. We took
the students to the Portuguese Club.
G: Did you? What did you do there? Do you remember?
16
�H: We just hung out. It was the middle of the day. We met some people. We let them play games, and
you know. I don’t even know why we did that. I don’t remember, but we did just to connect them a
little bit.
G: By the way, Hudson’s Portuguese Club did have the reputation of being one of the best in New
England. You know, nice space.
H: Yah, nice space.
G: And nice food.
H: Yup. I take that back. I did go to a festa, but that was in the late 60s. That’s how my parents I did go
to a festa in Hudson, but it was at the Portuguese Club, and it was before I was teaching there. And I
was a teenager. And my parents would come up to these people that knew people in Hudson, to visit
them and they went to a festa. And I remember a lot of people, and hanging out, they had a teenage
daughter. And we sang. I remember dancing with her. Walk like an Egyptian, [Laughter] or something.
One of those Egyptian songs.
G: Not in Portuguese.
H: No, no, no. That’s all I remember about the festa.
N: Fun, fun, though.
H: Yah, but you know, the festas, unless you’re really active, involved, I think the festas are, my
experience has been, you go there to see people, to eat, to dance. If you’re young, to meet boys. If
you’re older, to see people you haven’t seen in a long time. It’s a social event, and if you’re from the
community. That’s what it is. So, I don’t have any other impressions.
G: So, by the way, we’ve basically covered almost all the questions I had, which is really quite nice, but
let me just, before you go, just a couple of other just quick things here, kind of facts if you will.
H: Sure.
G: What year were your parents born? And what were their names?
H: Right. So, my mother was born in 1922, and her name was, oh, and that’s another interesting story.
I’ll have to tell it to you. So, my mother’s name is Alzira Lucas.
G: Would you spell that please?
H: It’s A L Z I R A. And her last name was L U C A S. So, her father’s name was Germano Lucas, and her
mother’s name, whatever. And some people have the different surnames. Whatever. But the point,
the story I want to get at is that her name was Alzira Lucas. My father is Antonio Do Rosario, D O R O S A
R I O Santos. Okay. So, my father, and my mother (--) When my mother came to the United States, and
she took care of her paperwork, she became Alzira Santos. Do you see where I’m going?
G: Yes. Yes.
H: She became Alzira Santos. Okay. Fast forward to 1984, and Helena Santos isn’t going to change her
name, okay. So, I had had a whole name experience. I’m Helena because my sister wanted me to be
Elaine, because she liked it in English she liked the name Elaine. So, my parents said, okay, Helena,
that’s a pretty name. We’ll name the baby Helena. So, they named the baby Helena, and my sister and
the neighborhood, with the kids, called me Elaine. So, the adult neighbors called me Elaine. And then
17
�Helena learns to write her name from her father and shows this adult what her name is. And she, adult,
smart adult says, “That’s not your name.” “That’s not how you spell your name.” So, I had my first
traumatic experience with that. And then the kids started calling me Helen. I don’t know how that
happened, but it became Helen, because it wasn’t Elaine. So, it was Helen. So then in school I was
Elaine in first grade, because I still wanted to be called Elaine in first grade. I don’t know why. And then
I was Helena. Then I was Helena. Then I was Helen. Then I was Helena. Then I was, you know the rest
of the story. So, by the time I went to get my license, I wrote my license with Helen. And my father said,
“I’m not signing this, because that’s not your name.” And my parents call me Lena sometimes, you
know, which I wish had stuck, because that’s so much better.
N: Yah, I love that name.
H: It’s so pretty, but it didn’t. So, okay. So, I had to be Helena on my license, but somehow, I snuck in
Helen on my social security card. So, which I had later changed. But in any case, I was Helen in public,
you know, around with people, and then I was whatever people wanted to call me. And then in college I
tried to use Helena again. People never could pronounce it, and I hated the mispronunciations. So, by
the time I wanted to get married there was no way I was going to go through any of this. And I was not
changing my name to my husband’s name. So, I was going to be Helena, my middle name is Lucas.
That’s the tradition. Helena Lucas Santos, right? And my mother said, “no!” “You can’t do that.” I
changed my name to come to this country, because Americans, they follow, take their husband’s name,
and what an insult to your husband’s family. And they’re not going to like you. And I said, “That’s their
problem.”
N: Yah, it’s true.
H: So, anyway. So, I didn’t change my name. So that’s why I have Santos. My son is Daniel Santos Fox.
So, he keeps the tradition. No hyphens. Do what you want with it, but that’s what it is. And my
husband’s name is Fox, David Fox. So, their name was that. That’s their name. And then my father had
a nickname, which is kind of interesting. He was known for many, many years as Antonio de Alzira.
N: That’s funny.
H: Right?
N: Maybe there’s lot of Antonios.
H: No, because when my mother was here by herself, she would talk about “Meu Antonio. Meu
Antonio”, right?
N: So cute. I love that.
H: “Meu Antonio”. And when “My Antonio” comes, when Antonio comes. So, when he came, he
became “Alzira’s Antonio”.
N: That’s so cute. I love that.
H: So, that stuck for many, many, many years, Antonio de Alzira. So, he was born in 1922. No, I reverse
that. Yah, he was born in 1920.
G: Your mother was born in 1922.
H: And my father was born in 1920.
G: 1920. In the same community in Portugal?
18
�H: Yes, in Evora, De Alcobaca. So, I like those old stories.
N: Yah, I love that. That’s a great story.
G: Well, thank you.
H: Really covered everything on the list. Good.
[At this point in the interview the review of Helena’s photos, documents, etc., begins. Once this review
is completed, the interview resumes with final thoughts. It’s important to note that Helena’s collection
has been digitized and can be viewed in the Portuguese American Digital Archive]
H: This is a nice letter written by the middle school principal. I worked at the high school for five years,
and then I went to JFK Middle School, which is now David Quinn Middle School. It’s named after the
principal that I worked under. You asked about people that I thought were influential in the community.
He’s a man I would identify. (He was married to a Portuguese woman, but he wasn’t Portuguese).
G: So he has creds?
H: I worked at the middle school for three years. I was the TBE teacher and counselor. I taught all the
subjects: ESL, science, social studies, math, and I was half time bilingual counselor which meant I
serviced non TBE students whose families spoke Portuguese at home. Adelino came in to teach
Portuguese language arts. We did everything.
I was asked if I wanted to go the middle school. I had just finished my Masters in counseling and they
were thinking about hiring someone to work in the middle school, and they asked me. No one wanted to
work in the middle school, but it was an opportunity. I want to work as a bilingual counselor, and the
principal was interested in me because he wanted some one who wanted to take trips with students so I
said yah. I will do it. I was transferred. I had been teaching for five years. On my first day. I was standing
outside my class doing hall duty, and two teachers from across the hall came over and stood by me and
said, “We are so glad you are here. Now you can do something about the way those kids stink in my
class.”.
N: oh no.
H: I was flabbergasted. I felt like I was gut punched. I couldn’t talk; I just wanted to run away and cry.
G: Wow.
H: and that’s what you dealt with. All the time, every day. One way or another, it was always present.
For those three years that I was there, the Portuguese students were more disciplined than the
American students, because when there was a problem, the assistant principal would call me to
translate to their parents, but he wasn’t calling all of the other students’ parents. He wasn’t doing that. I
did everything that needed to be done. It wasn’t just the bilingual students. It was the [TBE Program]
bilingual students and the [mainstreamed] Portuguese students.
G: It is one of the dilemmas of this country. Because many of these teachers themselves were.
grandchildren or children of immigrants themselves. These same tensions, causal tensions have
occurred here in Lowell. Particularly with Southeast Asians, many of them, sadly, were not equipped to
work with these students, and it wasn’t just Southeast Asians, it was Puerto Ricans, there were a lot of
preconceptions among the Anglo teachers. I say Anglo, but they could have been Greek Americans, Irish
Americans... So those things you encountered at the middle school happened in so many areas, urban
areas.
19
�H: Anywhere. It’s that whole social stratification thing. I am on top now, so somebody has to be on the
bottom. I can’t imagine the way things are today.
G: We all like to think there have been great improvements.
H: I used to. I used to think things were better. If they were this bad then when as a society, we were a
little bit more reserving about expressing our thoughts. Now that anything goes, right? I can’t imagine. I
can imagine. I have other stories. I think someone like me or you. Where were you born?
N: I was born here.
H: I was assuming you were. I am sorry.
N: I am half American. I am only half Portuguese. My father is American, like your son.
H: I don’t think my son feels it as much. Maria Serpa and I used to talk about this when we went to BU
together. People like me [ bicultural]. You see both sides. You learn to walk the line all the time: on this
day, you are a Portagee, on this day you are American, and on this day you are Portuguese. You have to
figure out, “How am I being perceived today”? The Portuguese don’t see you as Portuguese sometimes,
and the Americans don’t see you as American sometimes, and vice versa. So, you are always walking this
line. Even the story of my name. It’s so significant to me because I pronounce my name based on who I
am talking to. I know when people use my name. I know where people know me from. It’s very
significant.
N: I asked Maria whether people call her Lourdes, or Maria Lourdes, and she said the same thing. It
depends. It depends on where people know me from, if you are my family, or not…
H: Even the mail. I almost always spell my name with the “a”, but if it doesn’t have the “a” it’s tells me
where it came from. Email has changed that because Helen has become like my nickname, but.. it’s one
of those little student thing
H: This is an art exhibit my brother was in. He’s an artist and a teacher. He was a teacher in Sommerville,
Stockbridge, and now he is in Boston.
G: He’s 10 years younger, right. What is his name.
H: his name is Jose, [we called him Joey]. And my sister is Maria [Alzira], and she was a teacher in
Chicopee and Indian Orchard.
There is more conversation about the documents.
H: I am not real good about keeping in touch with people. I admire people who do, but I am not one of
them.I feel like I barely had enough time to do what I was doing, and take care of my family, you know.
And I spent a lot of time going, with my free time, going back to my parents’ home. Like every chance I
get. My parents died recently, and my dad was 98. He was going to be 99 a month later. He died on
February 4, 2019. Oh God, it’s going to be four years. So, three years ago, at 98, almost 99. And my
mother died five years before that at 93. And so, every chance I had I would go to them, you know, I
mean within reason. I had a son, and got my Doctorate, and I did all that stuff while I was working and
everything. So, I didn’t have a lot of free time to socialize. I don’t have those kinds of, anyway. I’m
explaining away, but it’s the truth.
20
�G: How typical was it to have these older students at the high school?
H: There were a few. There was, Jose was the longest, I think. There were a few that didn’t make it.
You know, there was an older woman that didn’t make it.
G: How old would Jose have been?
H: He would have been about my age at the time. So, late twenties, early thirties? I think maybe he
was younger. Maybe he was younger than me, but still, late twenties, early thirties. [He was in his early
to mid-twenties].
G: At the high school. That’s interesting. I’m not sure other high schools would permit that. They would
have to go to Adult Ed.
H: Right, and we did [not] have an [extensive] Adult Ed Program. And I think that was Dennis’ doing.
Dennis was good at somethings, and not so good at others, but one of the things he was good at was
sort of manipulating the system and in, in a nice way. So that I think that was his doing. I wouldn’t have
done that. I wouldn’t have done that, because I think it was not so good for, I didn’t think it was so good
for the students, but they appreciated it.
All right. This is something that has nothing to do with Hudson, but I used this a lot, my dissertation.
And I bet you never saw this before. And the focus is on women. So, my dissertation title was “The
Socialization Experience of Cape Verdean, Latina, and Portuguese Women in Higher Education, in
Southeastern Massachusetts Higher Education Programs.” So, there wasn’t a lot written about this
stuff, right? And I did narratives. So, there’s a little blurb. I had to write my own story a little bit. So,
it’s in there too if that’s useful. But this was one of the few items that I was able to find that dealt with
women, Portuguese women. So, I thought, you know, you might want to look at that.
G: Interesting. So, these are your post it notes.
H: These are still my post it notes. I didn’t take them out.
G: Who’s the author?
H: It’s a compilation of the presentations. So, I presented a short brief of my dissertation at this
conference, which was on women, Portuguese women. And it was just a few years ago. And that didn’t
go very long. I mean they were going to do it again, and they didn’t. So, I think I have my notes from
my presentation in there. You can look at that.
And then these two, again, I hung on to this stuff. I don’t know that you want it. I don’t know what to
do with it. This is a journal. Do you know this journal? So, this was from the 70s and 80s.
G: Which journal?
H: The Bilingual Journal. And these three focused on Portuguese Education in mostly Massachusetts.
G: Is Hudson covered in there?
H: Not per se, see. No. Fall River and Cambridge mostly. So, this is a paper. This is the only paper I
have left I think, from BU when I was a student and I had to write a personal theory on counseling, and I
integrated a little bit of my experiences from Hudson in there. So, I thought, maybe you’d want to see
that.
And these are some more old resumes.
21
�And this is a synopsis of my dissertation that I submitted to a competition that I didn’t win.
G: Nicki, this actually could be quite an interesting document. I mean it was held under the auspices of
the Del Phi University at Long Island, I think, New York. But it was actually published in Fall River. So, I
don’t know. I’m assuming there would be a copy at Del Phi, but anyway. That looks very interesting.
H: I thought so. And you know, you are very welcome to keep it, because as much as it meant to me, I
have no use for it, and I don’t want to throw it away.
G: A copy of this should be at the UMass Libraries.
N: I’ll look to see where any copies exist. It would be good to know.
H: I can’t even tell you where I got it. I got it a long time ago.
N: It’s probably pretty rare.
G: There is one name I recognize in there. It’s Mary Vermette, who is very, was, I think she died.
H: Yes, she did.
G: But she was very involved in Portuguese history of like New Bedford, whaling, and anyway,
interesting.
H: So, I knew Mary Vermette.
G: Oh, you did?
H: I did. I met her. By the time I did my dissertation she had already passed away, but she was certainly
someone I was interested in. I had met her when I was at UMass, because she knew Antonio Andrade,
my professor, who was from Fall River, okay, and he brought her in to talk about her dissertation, which
is on “The Perception of Portuguese in American Literature.” So that was her specialty, right? And I was
enthralled by this woman. And she was outgoing. Did you ever meet her?
G: Never did. I just have read about her.
H: She was vivacious, you know, funny, outgoing. Just so different from my experience. And
Portuguese, you know. And then, as I got into more of the Portuguese experiences, nobody looked up
to Mary Vermette.
G: No kidding. Wow.
H: Because she was Portuguese American. You couldn’t name it, but it was, she was a woman. That’s
why I think it’s so important, because you look around today, you go to a Portuguese restaurant today,
you don’t see two women sitting there by themselves. You see two men sitting there by themselves
having lunch, right? So Portuguese women just were not equally respected. And she suffered the brunt
of that.
And I have to show you this one last thing. So, this is HERS [group photo]. I attended the HERS
Management Institute. It’s Management Institute For Women in Higher Education Administration at
Wellesley College, in 1996/97, okay. This was the first time that I met, all of these women were there.
They’re all people who, this was the year I started my Doctorate. They want to be leaders in higher ed.
It’s the first time I met a Portuguese woman [in this type of academic setting]. Her name was Rita, I
think Rita [Marinho], now I’m not going to remember.
22
�G: Well again, we can send this to you, and you can then help us with it.
H: But she was a dean. At the time she was a dean at UMass Dartmouth. And she was again, a very
outgoing, outspoken person. And she stood up and she said, you know, we were talking about diversity
and stuff. And she stood up and said, “this is the first time that I.” This woman. She was older than me.
I’m in the background somewhere. You know, and I was a lowly assistant director at the time, and she
was a dean. And she stood up, and she said, “This is the first time I ever met a Portuguese woman in my
academic career at this level in leadership.” Because we weren’t there, right. And that’s why I did my
dissertation with the subject I did. I did faculty instead of administrators, because, you know, lots of
reasons, but they weren’t there either. I met four. I had four in my research. Anyway, I’ll stop.
G: I think this is going to be a fantastic collection.
N: It is going to be. I’m really excited about it.
H: Oh, thank you.
N: You’ve given us so much helpful information.
G: To be totally above board, this archive is really Nicki’s creation. I mean she’s done everything you
see, is really, basically. I mean we’ve had some student help, which Nicki has directed.
H: It’s a lot of work.
N: It’s an amazing experience though. I love it. So, it’s been fun. The only other thing we have to do is
have you sign like donation agreements so that we have permission to digitize and post things online.
H: Okay. So, at some point you would be interested in knowing more about the things that my sister
has at her house. My sister still lives in the last house my parents lived in. So, some of the things that
they had are still there.
N: Yes, and we can always add to the collection. So, like once we’ve done all of this, if in the future your
sister is interested in bringing more materials, we can always add to it. There’s not like a stop point.
H: Like I said at the beginning, I mean I would love to tell their story. If you want to include their story, I
have a few recordings of their conversations. We didn’t do a lot with video for some reason. We have
photos. We have, you know.
N: Yes, it’s definitely of interest. And we, usually with every collection we write a little background on
the family. So that we’ll be putting a little part of their story in there when we’re introducing the
collection.
G: And we’d love to have you review it.
N: To make sure everything is correct. Thank you so much. This has been so lovely. I loved hearing
your story, and your career and everything.
H: I really do appreciate. This has been fun. It would certainly be very meaningful if we can pull some
of this into, you know, some of my family history into it.
N: For sure. We want to have that context too.
Interview ends.
23
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Helena Lucas Santos Collection [1937-2000]
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Donated by Helena Santos.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
UMass Lowell, Center for Lowell History
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copyright - Educational Use Permitted: This Item is protected by copyright and/or related rights. You are free to use this Item in any way that is permitted by the copyright and related rights legislation that applies to your use. In addition, no permission is required from the rights-holder(s) for educational uses. For other uses, you need to obtain permission from the rights-holder(s).
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
JPEG
PDF
TIFF
Language
A language of the resource
English
Portuguese
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SantosHelena_
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1937-2000
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Santos, Helena
Santos, Alzira Lucas
Berthiaume, Roger
Cruz, Gabriel
Sousa, Ramiro
Sousa, Lucy
Costa, Emilia
Subject
The topic of the resource
Portuguese American women
Immigrant families
Immigrants
Portugal--Emigration and immigration
Education
Education, Bilingual
Teachers
Political paraphernalia
Dictators
Barbershops
Madeirans
Cultural assimilation
Soccer
World War, 1914-1918
World War, 1939-1945
Veterans
Wedding attendants
Azorean Americans
Family violence
Politics and government
Whaling
Weather forecasting
Oral tradition
Fasts and Feasts
Ethnic food
Model minority sterotype
School field trips
English language--Study and teaching--Foreign speakers
Community organization
Boy Scouts
Wine and wine making
Immigrants--Cultural Assimilation--United States
Portugal--History--Revolution, 1974
Fulbright scholars
Women in higher education
Counseling in higher education
Student counselor
English language--Study and teaching--Foreign speakers
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Alcobaça (Portugal)
Ludlow (Mass.)
Hudson (Mass.)
Azores
Pico Island (Azores)
Santa Maria (Azores)
Boston (Mass.)
Cambridge (Mass.)
Lawrence (Mass.)
Medford (Mass.)
Worcester (Mass.)
Framingham (Mass.)
Somerville (Mass.)
Springfield (Mass.)
Description
An account of the resource
<p>The Helena Lucas Santos Collection contains documents and photographs pertaining to the life and career of Helena Santos, EdD, a Portuguese American educator in Massachusetts. Most of the items focus on her time as a teacher and educator at Hudson Public Schools, where she worked within the ESL and Bilingual Education programs. Also included are various images and writings from bilingual students who attended Hudson Public Schools from 1977-1986.<br /><br />Her doctoral dissertation was titled <a href="https://www.proquest.com/docview/305382111?pq-origsite=gscholar&fromopenview=true">"The Socialization Experience of Cape Verdean, Latina and Portuguese Women Faculty at Four-Year Institutions in Southern New Enland"</a>.</p>
<p><br /><strong>Biographical Sketch</strong></p>
Helena Lucas Santos (b. 1954) is a Portuguese American educator and scholar from Ludlow, Massachusetts. She holds a Doctorate in Higher Education Administration (UMass Boston), a Master’s in Education in Bilingual/Cross-cultural Counseling (Boston University), and a Bachelor's Degree in Portuguese (UMass Amherst). She taught at Hudson Public Schools for 9 years as a teacher and counselor within the English as a Second Language and Transitional Bilingual Education programs. She also served as the Title VII Lau Coordinator from 1982-1986. In 1986, she moved to Bridgewater State University where she worked in the Academic Achievement Center and in 2006 to Lasell University where she served as Assistant Vice President and Dean of Academic Success for the rest of her career. While teaching in Hudson, Helena met David Fox, also from Hudson, and they married in 1984. They have one son, Daniel.<br /><br />Helena was born to Alzira Lucas Santos (1922-2015) and Antonio do Rosario Santos (1920-2019). Alzira was born as the third child to Germano and Gloria Lucas, Portuguese immigrants living in Ludlow, MA. Germano and Gloria decided to move back to Evora de Alcobaça, Portugal to raise their children but, shortly after returning, the two older children passed away. Alzira became the oldest of seven children that followed. It was here that Alzira eventually met her husband, Antonio do Rosario Santos, and they married in 1946.<br /><br />Because she was born in the United States, Alzira held American citizenship. Therefore, she came back to the United States in 1952 and her husband and their daughter, Maria, followed soon after. They settled in Ludlow, MA, where Alzira was born. The Santos’ went on to have two more children: Helena and Jose, and two grandchildren: Daniel Santos Fox and Isabel Corkey Santos. Alzira worked as a seamstress in the local manufacturing companies such as Cromwell Mills, Carter’s Clothing, and Spaulding Sports Corporation. Antonio worked for various companies such as Chapman Valve, Westinghouse, and Moore Drop Forging Co./Danaher Tools.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Helena Lucas Santos Oral History Interview
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2022-11-03
Description
An account of the resource
Helena Lucas Santos (b. 1954) is a Portuguese American educator and scholar from Ludlow, Massachusetts. She taught at Hudson Public Schools for 9 years as a teacher and counselor within the English as a Second Language and Transitional Bilingual Education programs. In 1986, she moved to Bridgewater State University where she worked in the Academic Achievement Center and in 2006 to Lasell University where she served as Assistant Vice President and Dean of Academic Success.
In this oral history interview, she discusses her parents' immigration journey between Portugal and the United States, growing up Portuguese American in Ludlow, her family's experience with cultural assimilation, her education journey, and her time teaching bilingual education in Hudson.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Fitzsimons, Gray
Santos, Helena Lucas
Tantum, Nicole
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Hudson (Mass.)
Ludlow (Mass.)
Alcobaça (Portugal)
Springfield (Mass.)
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Donated by Helena Santos
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
UMass Lowell, Center for Lowell History
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
PDF
Language
A language of the resource
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Subject
The topic of the resource
Education, Bilingual
Immigrant families
Portugal--Emigration and immigration
Portuguese American women
Teachers
Education
Cultural assimilation
Mills and mill-work
Azorean Americans
Fasts and Feasts
Counseling in higher education
Carter's
Chapman Valve
Cromwell Mills
Hudson Portuguese Club
-
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PDF Text
Text
UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SAAB CENTER FOR PORTUGUESE STUDIES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT
INTERVIEWEE: JOHN LEITE
INTERVIEWER: GRAY FITZSIMONS
DATE: February 8, 2023
Biographical Sketch:
John Leite was born in Manchester, New Hampshire, in 1933. His father, Belarmino (1892-1970) and
mother, Violante J. (Sousa) Leite (1894-1979) were born on the island of Graciosa in the Azores. They
immigrated to the U.S. in the mid-1920s, initially settling in Lowell, before moving to Manchester, New
Hampshire, they worked for a number of years at the Amoskeag Mill. Belarmino Leite worked in the
highly skilled job of loom fixer and Viloante Leite worked many years as a spinner. Around 1936 they
returned to Lowell, living there the remainder of their lives. They had three daughters and one son, John
J. who was educated in Lowell’s public schools. Belarmino, a trombonist, played in and managed
Lowell’s Portuguese Colonial Band. John Leite joined the band when he was a boy, playing the trumpet
and later the trombone. After serving in the U.S. Army in post-war Europe, he returned home and
matriculated at Lowell State Teachers’ College; after graduating from the college he taught in the area’s
public schools, performed as a professional trombonist in well-known local bands, and formed his own
band; beginning in the 1970s Mr. Leite became secretary/treasurer of the Lowell local of the American
Federation of Musicians (AFM), AFL-CIO, and after its merger with other locals in 1995, he was elected
president of AFM Local 300.
Scope and Contents:
As in two other oral history interviews with Mr. Leite, this Interview includes a great deal of information
on Mr. Leite’s career as a musician and some of the well-known composers, conductors, and musicians
whom he knew and with whom he performed. But unlike the other interviews, this oral history covers
his recollections of the Portuguese “Back Central” neighborhood in Lowell and his childhood, into his
early teens, as an altar boy at St. Anthony’s Church. It also includes additional information about his
parents, their work in the textile industry, and their home in South Lowell.
J=JOHN
G=GRAY
G: It’s February 8, Wednesday. I’m at the home of John Leite, and here we go.
J: My dad was a loom fixer, and he made a piece of equipment somehow to make the loom run better.
Right?
1
�G: Right.
J: He didn’t get a dime for it, you know, I mean the powers that be did.
G: The company did well.
J: But he could fix anything. It didn’t matter what it was. And my mother started as a bobbin girl. Then
she went as a spinner, and then she became a weaver. And I would visit the mills once in a while. I
mean I remember the noise you know. They must have all gone deaf. And the shuttle going back,
[makes sounds of shuttle going back and forth], you know, the weavers. And if there was a break in the
line you had to go [makes sound]. And she had fast hands. Incredible and getting paid crap for it. And
the companies are making millions of dollars on the silk. That was a silk mill.
G: Yah, this was the Newmarket Mills, right? The Silk Mills.
J: Yah, Newmarket. They called it the Silk Mills. Across from Athenian Corner. That one there.
G: Your dad, and your mom, they were there a long time, right?
J: Yah, they were there. First, well Wilhelmina was born really early, when they got married. And then
Mary came along twelve years later. And then Helen four years after that. And then the last four years,
myself. But with Wilhelmina, she was a secretary in Robey Shoe. You know where that fifth-floor thing
is in the mills from Jackson Street to Middlesex Street?
G: Yes.
J: Those mills there?
G: Yes, the Appleton and the Hamilton Mills, formerly.
J: Yah, and you go underneath and out. They sell records up there, Dave [David Perry].
G: Right, Mill No. 5.
J: Yah, No. 5, well that’s where, exactly where Robey Shoe was.
G: Oh, is that where? Robey Shoe, on that same floor?
J: Yah, I remember that. Because he told me, Dave Perry, the record guy, told me that they found a last,
you know a true last, in the wall, on that floor. I said, well I worked there after I, just after I got out of
high school.
G: Did you work at Robey Shoe?
J: Yah.
G: I didn’t know that.
J: I was a shipper/receiver with the older guy who was there, and I was you know, learning.
G: But your sister Wilhelmina worked there?
J: My sister Wilhelmina worked in the office. The shipper/receiver says, “Hey, grab a broom.” “It looks
clean here.” “No, no, see that first row of women? The last? Go down there and clean under her.”
She’s wide open, you know. And, you know, of course I was always doing a lot of cleaning. That was a
2
�day full. But then I left that, and I went to Jay’s Radio on Bridge Street. Right on the corner of Paige.
Was it Paige, where it comes around down like this?
G: I think it is Paige.
J: On French Street.
G: On French Street.
J: Bridge Street was the main door. One of the owners, George Ash, was the Mayor of Lowell. And he
was a part owner.
G: Oh, was he really? I didn’t know that.
J: Yah, of Jay’s. And they had a store in Lawrence. So, there’s a kid in Lawrence, Louie and myself, used
to put TV aerials up on houses. You had to take four ten-foot galvanized poles, clamp them together so
you’d have forty feet height. Then the butterfly antenna, right. And we’d take turns going up the roof.
It was a tough time, and tough thing to carry that thing up there.
G: I can imagine.
J: It was heavy. But the guy on the roof had to take it all the way to the peak. Walk along the roof to
the chimney. Put the chimney straps and put it in, you know, and that’s before cell phones. You know,
you’re yelling down, turn it the other way! No, no, no, a little bit more. Oh, okay, you got it. Okay,
picture looks good. Lock it up. Come on down. And we did this on Pine Street, which was a doubledecker. Of course, now they’re all condos on Pine Street. And diagonally across from the school. And it
was his turn, Louie’s turn to go up. It was a slate roof.
G: Slippery.
J: And they’re always losing slates, you know. And his turn to go. He goes up the ladder. He walked up.
I used to go up on my bum, right. He’d just walk up the roof. The slate let go. He came down two
stories. Boom! Fortunately, there was grass there. He got up and he says, “Son of a bitch!” And he ran
up the ladder, and he ran up the roof. He was a crazy bastard. The highest one I had to go in was in
North Billerica, four stories. Those aluminum ladders would bend like that as you’re walking up.
G: Yes, I remember. I know what you mean. I’ve done it.
J: Four stories, that’s a long way up. And then going up to the peak, and going over the strapping, and
all that stuff.
G: It’s a young man’s job.
J: Jeeze, I was eighteen.
G: Well actually, here’s the thing. I was going to ask you, you were born in Manchester, right? And
then you guys moved to Lowell I think in 38 or 39?
J: Helen and I were born in Manchester, the one closest to me. The one that’s four years older than I.
The first two were born her [in Lowell].
G: Yes.
J: You know, Wilhelmina and Mary. And then Helen and I were born in Manchester. They went where
the work was, The Amoskeag Mills.
3
�G: Yes, Amoskeag, right.
J: So, they had to go work at Amoskeag Mills, and we had cousins up there anyhow. So, we had
connections in Manchester. But then they moved back to Lowell. I was three.
G: So, the thing is, I found through the City Directories that your family moved to Bowden Street in
South Lowell.
J: Twice.
G: Yah, I know, exactly. I was going to ask you about that.
J: First time was fifty-six and fifty-eight Bowden, a double decker. Mr. Rebello owned the house, and he
had a grape garden, grapevines in the back. And I used to help him pick the grapes. So, this one
Christmas he said, “I want to buy you a sled. You don’t have a sled.” There used to be a toy store
downtown across Shattuck Street and where the bank is now. Then there’s like a little sub shop, or
something in there at the corner. The next store, which has changed about a million things. That used
to be a toy store.
G: Was it?
J: And he said, “Pick any sled.” They’re all hanging on the wall. I picked a Donald Duck sled. It was cute.
I liked it, you know. So, he bought it. He comes home, he brings it home. My father looked at it. He
says, “How much was that sled?” Asking Mr. Rebello. And he told him. He said, “Why did you spend so
much money?” He says, “Hey, he’s a good kid. He’s your son, but he’s a good kid. And he helps me
with the grapes. That’s it. I bought it. You don’t have to buy it.” And so, I had a Donald Duck sled
parading around Bowden Street. We lived at fifty-eight [Bowden Street], upstairs.
G: So, Mr. Rebello was Portuguese, right?
J: Mr. Rebello, of course.
G: And do you know where he was from? What island?
J: No.
G: Okay, that’s all right.
J: No, I’m sorry, I don’t. I was little.
G: No, no, of course, I know. But, your parents moved back to Lowell. Did they know Rebello
beforehand, or did they just find an ad for this two-family house?
J: Well, you know, in the church. The church makes the connections. And so, you talk to Father Grillo,
you know, somebody always knows. Oh, Mr. Rebello has a place. You know, that’s how. It’s a network
like today.
G: Let me ask you though, when your parents moved to Manchester, they didn’t continue to go to Saint
Anthony’s did they?
J: Oh no. No.
G: They were at a church up in Manchester.
J: Yah. Don’t ask me the name of it. I have no clue.
4
�G: No, no, that’s okay.
J: I was just born.
G: 1933. So anyway, so your parents moved back to Lowell. And my question is, they didn’t move to
the Back Central neighborhood. They moved to Bowden Street.
J: Yah, that’s what was available.
G: Right. But I was wondering, what are your earliest memories of Back Central, the neighborhood?
J: Well, I told you I had an aunt and uncle there.
G: Your aunt was on Chapel Street.
J: Yah, but I had an uncle and aunt on Back Central Street, that big, long Nolan Block.
G: Oh, the Nolan Block.
J: On the right-hand side. I don’t know how many stories, four or five stories or something.
G: I think it’s four.
J: There’s a market on the corner. And my uncle lived there, my father’s brother, José . And he was
sickly. And his wife was a [whistles]. As a kid, you’re walking in there, and it’s a dark hallway. And
there’s one sixty-watt bulb hanging down on a wire, right, from the ceiling. And as a kid you’re walking
up. It’s scary. You’re walking up the stairs, fourth floor, right. It was after Mass, right. And then as you
walk along there’s a hallway. And the hallway has all these windows on Central Street. And she had
garlic tied to all the locks.
G: Garlic?
J: Garlic.
G: Why?
J: To keep the spirits away! I’m telling you she was a strange lady. So, we finally get into the
apartment, and my father says, “Mude mulher!” She [my aunt replied] “Não vá!” My father got pissed,
right. And he walked right past her. She was a bitch. And he opens the door, and he closes the door and
visits with his brother, you know, because he was really sick. I don’t know what he had. But she was
just a whacko. And she would have fought my father, you know, if we weren’t all there.
G: She was a tough cookie still.
J: Yah, that’s how I remember her. But he, José , was a wonderful man.
J: And he was a wonderful man, you know. Anyway, it was scary to visit that place. The other place on
Chapel Street was brighter, and it was only two stories.
G: Was it a double house?
J: Double decker, yah.
G: Double decker. Did a few families live there, or just a couple?
5
�J: Well, there were two-families in a double decker. You know, they’d go by how high, how many floors,
and you put another family in. I’m sure there were some places that had families in one place. I didn’t
know any of those.
G: So, this was your aunt on Chapel Street.
J: Yah.
G: Which aunt? One of your father’s sisters?
J: My mother’s aunt? I think it was like a grand aunt, or something.
G: Got you, okay.
J: Something like that. She was a nice lady. We used to go to another relative, further down Chapel
Street. I forget who it was. And the guy used to make his moonshine. Most of them did. Most of the
old guys, they made their moonshine. And I’ve been there as a little kid, and I see the old guys going,
taking shots and a bite of a fig. You know, you get a fig, you get a date, you know, and you take a shot,
and then you take a bite, and you take another shot, take a bite, you know. My dad could do that like
poof. He was good at doing it. So, as I grew older, and now I’m fifteen and I’m saying, hey “Pai, agora?”
Yah, all right. And I take a shot, right. And I said, “I’m going to do this. Took a bite of the date, took a
swig. Oh gee! It’s great!” It was barely a drop. Oh Christ, it burned so much. This was moonshine. Oh
my god. So, I said, “Why do you guys drink this?” And he says, “You don’t know how to drink it.” Slow,
little sips. Bite of the date, another sip. Bite of the date. Well, some of them used to zap it, you know.
The second one they’d do it slower, you know. First one they go, zap it. And then the second one,
okay, now we’ll eat the dates. But, you know, that’s my biggest memory. Well, the other memory of
Back Central Street is the Portuguese Band.
G: Yes, I was going to ask you about that.
J: I started playing trumpet when I was younger. And I was thirteen when I joined the band. And I was
taking lessons with John, Mr. John Giblin. You always addressed him that way. Mr. John J. Giblin.
G: G I B L I N?
J: Yah. And he had a studio in the Rialto Building. And right on the corner, the tower, the second floor.
It had windows, you know, on both sides. Beautiful studio. And when it started off my father would
take me up there. And after that, you know, go take your lesson. And he was a wonderful man. He was
a high school band director. That’s how I met him. He played cornet. Lowell used to have a lot of opera
houses. And he played in the pits of the opera. He had a tongue like a snake. Oh man could he tongue.
And every student of his had to learn single, double, and triple tonguing. My graduation from Morey
Junior High, of course it’s not a junior high anymore. It’s an elementary school now. They tore it down.
The original one was a junior high.
G: A junior high school.
J: You go up to ninth grade. From my ninth grade graduation, Doris Fein, played piano. She was a
concert pianist. The piano was up on the stage. And I said, I got to nail this thing, the triple tonguing.
[Makes triple tonguing sounds] The whole thing is all triple tonguing, right. And at the end it was a high
A. And I said, if I miss that everything is lost, right?
G: Right.
6
�J: [Makes more tonguing sounds and hits high A], and I hit it, right, and I wouldn’t let it go. And she’s up
on the stage like this. Hey, when are you going to end this thing, you know. I was so happy I nailed that
sucker. I held it and held it. And then I went “yo!”. And she went [makes sound]. Oh, I was so happy to
hit that high A.
G: Gee, I mean you were what? Fourteen, fifteen at the time?
J: I graduated. I was sixteen when I graduated from high school.
G: Were you? Sixteen?
J: Well sixteen March 31st, my senior year. I didn’t turn seventeen until March 31st. So, only two
months left for high school. So basically, my whole senior year I was sixteen. So, you take four years off
of that. I was young. Twelve or thirteen? Something like that. And I used to practice every day, two
and a half hours. We lived in a tenement, Wilhelmina’s house, on A Street; fifty-three and fifty-five A
Street.
G: Yah, you guys moved from Bowden to A Street, in the Highlands.
J: Yah.
G: Did your father rent, or did he buy that house on A Street?
J: No. That was Wilhelmina’s house.
G: Oh, that was Wilhelmina’s house?
J: My oldest sister, and her husband Gabe Gouveia.
G: Gouveia, okay.
J: Yah, Gabe Gouveia. And they owned it, and we rented the top, second floor.
G: I see, okay.
J: And those houses were really close, right? And I used to practice two and a half hours every night,
and nobody ever complained. If I were on a gig, they’d call my house to see if I was sick. Honest to God.
G: Where’s John? Why isn’t he practicing?
J: Yah, how come John’s not practicing? He’s playing a job. You know, he has to go play a job. I started
down at the Cosmo, I was fifteen. I had a trio.
G: Oh! Was that your first professional gig if you will?
J: Yah. Well not counting the band.
G: Right, but you got paid at the Cosmo.
J: Oh yah.
G: Fifteen, wow.
J: Yah, I was fifteen. I had a trio.
G: Were you playing the Trombone, or the Trumpet?
7
�J: Trumpet. I was still on a Trumpet through high school. And so, Sidney Richardson was at piano. He
was a classical guy. He could read anything. Ray Robey was the drummer, my buddy.
G: Ray? What’s his last name.
J: Robey.
G: Robey.
J: R O B E Y. And we were friends all through high school.
G: So, you had a trio?
J: I had a trio, yah.
G: Oh nice!
J: I owned a trio. And we used to get paid five bucks a night. The Cosmo, on Market Street, the building
is almost all gone, except for the end.
G: It’s all gone. Yah, I know.
J: Well, the end where the Sac Club was. Now that’s a restaurant.
G: Believe me, I fought to keep that building up, but anyway.
J: It was a long building.
G: I know.
J: And where I played, the lounge was on the righthand side, okay.
G: As you faced it, it was on the righthand side.
J: Yah, there was a big lounge in the middle. But there was this small lounge, right, and it had high
booths and stuff. And we’d get paid five bucks a night.
G: You don’t have any photos from the Cosmo, do you, of you playing?
J: No.
G: Sorry, go ahead.
J: There was a woman there that used to do bjs for two bucks, right.
G: I believe it.
J: So, I got home two nights a week, Friday, and Saturday, with three bucks. It was a good two-dollar
buy.
G: So, again, you were about fifteen or sixteen years old.
J: Fifteen, yah. And that’s where I met Jack Kerouac first time.
G: Did you really?
J: Yah.
G: You met him at the Cosmo?
8
�J: He used to go to all the clubs on Moody Street. They used to say “Moodsi” Street. You’re going to
“Moodsi” Street. So yah, there was a lot of clubs.
G: Yah, I understand that he used to sip a few there.
J: He used to go around to all the clubs. And he came this one night, just one time, sat down and he
listened, you know. And when we ended, playing the tune, or whatever it was, he said, “Gee, you guys
sound really good. Keep it up.”
G: Interesting. John, if you were fifteen, that would have been in forty-eight, or so. Interesting.
J: So, anyhow, that’s the first time. The funny thing is that when I eventually met Dave Amram in
Europe.
G: I know, you were in Germany.
J: Yah, Seventh Army Symphony.
G: Who could believe it, right?
J: You know what my first assignment was when they put me over there? First, I had to audition for the
Eighteenth Army Band in Devens, Fort Devens.
G: Yes.
J: And so, it was an opening for euphonium. You know what that is? A small tuba. There was an
opening for the euphonium there. And so now I was studying with John Coffey in Boston. He was the
Bass Trombonist for the Boston Symphony, you know, under Koussevitzky, and then Munch, during that
time.
G: He was the Bass Trombonist?
J: Bass Trombonist, yah.
G: What’s his name again?
J: John Coffey.
G: Coffey.
J: C O F F E Y. He had the studio across the street from Symphony Hall.
G: So, you studied with him?
J: Yah, I studied with him.
G: Oh wow! Is that where you learned the bass trombone?
J: Most of the guys who were traveling, there were a lot of traveling bands then, you know, name
bands, Tommy Dorsey and all these guys, and guys would stop off at John to get an upgrade on, hey, I
have this problem, I have that problem.
G: No kidding.
J: Oh yah, he’d straighten them out, you know. He was a wonderful guy. I was there taking lessons one
time and this guy comes in with a suit, three-piece suit, and he wraps on the door. There was a big
studio. The second studio was big. The first one was cramped. First one was, you know the BU Theater
9
�across? Well on the righthand side. There’s a sleezy bar down at the bottom. And then you got up to, I
think he was up on the fourth floor. He had it up there, a studio, but then he moved over this way, over
a men’s store on this side, on the corner. He had a studio. That was a nice one. A nice big window and
everything. It had little rooms. So, I’m taking a lesson with him. Now I’m older. I’m already back from
Germany. The trombone, right. And this guy in a three-piece suit knocks on, in the inside window
where his lesson was, there was a glass window so you could see. Oh, John says, “Who’s that?” I said, “I
don’t know.” So, he goes out there. He says, “I’m from the IRS and I understand you’re selling [fake]
music books and not recording anything.” It used to be fake books, you know, you could get a million
tunes out of the books. And he used to sell them for ten bucks. Most of the guys were selling them for
twenty, twenty-five, thirty. He was trying to help the kids. You know, so he says, “Yah.” “Do you have
anything?” He said, “Yah, I have a thing there. See it. I got them stacked up there.” And he says, “You
got to pay for those. You haven’t paid for any of that. You can’t do this anymore. You have a two
thousand dollar fine.”
G: Wow.
J: So, he said, “Look kid. Here’s two-hundred bucks, cash. See you later. Keep the cash.” The guy
walked out.
G: He paid them off. So, did you learn the bass trombone from John Coffey?
J: No, actually. Well, I did, later I did. But when I went to my first assignment after I left the Eighteenth
Army Band at Fort Devens.
G: This is after you had mustered out of the army?
J: No, no, no. I had to go down to Fort Dix for training.
G: I’m sorry. You learned the euphonium at, or you were playing the euphonium at Fort Devens
though, right?
J: Yah, but that’s after Fort Dix. I had to go to Fort Dix.
G: Okay. That’s where you did your basic training?
J: Yah. December, January, February. Three coldest months of the year. Well, one time we had M1
rifles. I was a marksman M1. I could shoot anything at a hundred yards. Those rifles were great. We’re
all lying down on the snow. And we had the big green coats that went down to here, with the brass
buttons, and the pack and stuff. So, we’re all lying down shooting the M1s. It was time to roll over.
Okay, get up. We’re all frozen to the ground with the buttons. So, he comes to the first kid on the
squad, and he said, “Get up!” He said, “I can’t.” He said, “Oh yah.” He grabs him by the collar like this.
Rip! And all the buttons were in the ice. “How the hell did my buttons?” “Dig them out with your
bayonet.” So, he did it to all of us, the whole squad. So, we had to dig him out, right, go back to the
building and sew the frick’in buttons on. But anyhow, after I did that, I was the only guy coming back to
Massachusetts. Most of them were going to Oklahoma, Alabama, you know. “Where are you going?” I
said, “I’m going back home.” So, I had to audition first. When I went for the audition John Coffey (--)
G: Where was the audition?
J: Up at Fort Devens.
G: At Fort Devens, okay.
10
�J: And John Coffey says, “Go ahead and do that.” I said, “I don’t have a euphonium.” He said, “For
Christ sake, take one from your high school. What, you want me to take the audition for you?” I said,
“Sure.” I got a horn out of the high school, you know, and I was a trumpet player, right. So, I went up to
Fort Devens. The Warrant Officer says, “Okay, you read F clef?” “No.” You know, that’s bass clef. I was
a trumpet player. I had to read in treble clef. It’s called transposed treble. It’s not concert treble. And
so, he said, “Well all right, but if you can play, I’ll give you six weeks to learn the F clef.” “Yes sir.” So, I
began the thing, and I whaled through everything. And so, he said, “Okay, you’re in.”
G: You made it.
J: Yah, I made it. I don’t have to go to Oklahoma, or you know.
G: So, were you shipped to Germany?
J: I was at [Fort Devens] first. I was living at home on Sayles Street now. Sayles Street was the first
home my dad bought. You know, beautiful, double, a lawn, yard, everything. Actually, the guy across
the street’s sister is living there now. But I used to get picked up by Bob something, a French horn
player who lived in Tewksbury. He used to pick me up every morning. It was like a day gig. We’d drive
up there, play the gigs. You know, the rehearsals, march around. At the end, come home. I was living
at home for Christ sake. How do they think I could go out and live in the barracks at all up there. And
then that was up there, I don’t know, two and a half, three months. And then they had this levy, what
they call a levy. It’s a group of people, guys, ten. A levy of ten. And at first, they said FECOM. I said, oh
Jesus.
G: They said what?
J: At first they said FECOM.
G: What’s that?
J: That’s Far Eastern Command. That’s Korea. And then the next morning they said, “No, that was a
mistake. It’s EUCOM”, Europe. So, ten of us out of that band were sent all over different units. And the
first place I went was the music school.
G: Where was that?
J: In Dachau.
G: Dachau, oh wow.
J: So, I walk in the front door. I go up the stairs, the second floor.
G: What year was that John, by the way?
J: Fifty-two. I went over in fifty-two. Went over on a boat in fifty-two. And anyhow, I had the class, and
we went to sleep that night, right. The next morning, I wake up, I look out the back window. What the
hell are those railroad tracks for? What are those? Ditches? What the hell is that for? So, I asked the
German guy onsite. He says, the bodies came in the carloads, you know, freight cars. Just stacked up.
Bodies stacked up. If they were still bleeding, they lay them in the ditch so that they would dry out and
burn faster. And I was sleeping over the ovens and the gas chamber. Three months I was there. As an
eighteen-year-old that’s scary.
G: Oh, it’s awful.
11
�J: You know? And then you had to say, well I’m not going to think about that, you know. Let’s get to
the music stuff. And the guy was a really good instructor, a German guy, musical guy. And then, the
first band I went to was an all-black band.
G: No kidding. I didn’t know that.
J: Well, everything was segregated through the Second World War.
G: Yes. Right.
J: Until 1940, let me see.
G: 48 I think.
J: No.
G: Under Truman.
J: Yah, but it was 47 when they started the integration. And then they started sending whites to the
black band, blacks to the white band. You know that kind of thing.
G: Interesting. So, most of the players were black though?
J: Yah, when I got there. I walked in with my trombone, right. Oh, that’s the other thing. I didn’t have a
trombone. John Coffey says, “I’ll sell you one.” So, he sold me a small Holton, you know. And he said,
“Here’s the seven positions. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven. See you later.” That was my lesson
on a trombone.
G: Where was this again, with Chuck Carver?
J: John Coffey.
G: Oh, I’m sorry, Coffey. Gotcha! That was the lesson.
J: Yah, he said, “You’ll figure that out kid.” So, I get on the boat.
G: But you had that same horn that you took overseas then, right?
J: Yah, I bought it!
G: From John. Okay.
J: So, I’m on a ship, right. You know, it was awful. You’re sliding. I had the bottom. These racks, there
were four racks, and they were canvas. So, you know, you sit down, and it goes [makes sound]. And I
was on the bottom because I was a little, smallest kid. I just didn’t have a belly or anything. And they
said, “You go in there.” I said, “How the [expletive] am I going to get?” He says, “Figure it out. If you
want to sleep. Figure it out.” So, you slide in, you know, like that. And the guy on top of me had a big
ass and it was hanging down here. So, I couldn’t roll over. In order to roll over, I had to get out and turn
around, and go back in. Oh, before the ocean storm, there was a sax player from North Chelmsford that
I met, Ronnie Klonel. Ron Klonel. His mother owned a shop up in North Chelmsford. She sold cloth for
making clothes, or something. And he was on the boat. He was an organizer kind of guy. And he found
a piano player on the boat. You know, he said, “You’re a trombone player.” I said, “I just got the
[expletive] horn. I haven’t had a lesson yet.” And he said, “You’ll figure something out.” So here we
are. We got a band. We found a drummer. We had a band, and we started playing afternoon gigs.
12
�G: On the boat?
J: Yah, on the boat. And so, then he said, “You know we’re doing this for nothing, right. I’m going to go
talk to the captain of the ship.” “What the hell are you going to (--)” “Leave it to me.” He goes up to the
captain and he says, “You know, we’ll do two gigs a day, right, entertain the troops.” Fifteen hundred
guys on the boat. That didn’t include the crew. Just fifteen hundred of us lumpers. So, he says, “We’ll
do two gigs a day, right, and what we need to do is eat up here with your guys, and not down in the
mess hall, and maybe use the shower or something.” The captain looked at him and he says, “You got to
be the biggest ass I’ve ever known.” He said, “Why would I do that?” “Well, to keep the troops.” He
says, “I don’t care. You know, five days over, I won’t see them.” So, he said, “Come on man.” He said,
“All right. You can eat up here with us, but no showers.” So, Ronnie did that. There’s a picture in Paul
Marion’s book of me with the piano and Ronnie Klonel.
G: Oh, is that right?
J: Paul Marion.
G: Yes, his book on Lowell.
J: Yah. He has the picture of me in there.
G: I’ll have to look at that. I’ll look at that again. Do you have that picture? Is that a picture you have?
J: I did have it somewhere.
G: Okay.
J: It’s an old picture.
G: No, that’s great.
J: But it’s in his book [John Leite pointed out the date of the photograph in Paul Marion’s book, Mill
Power, is incorrect; the date should be 1952, not 1950].
G: I never heard about this guy before. You say he was from Chelmsford?
J: Yah, North Chelmsford.
G: North Chelmsford.
J: Klonel Family. A Jewish family.
G: How do you spell the last name?
J: K L O N E L, the way it sounds. Klonel.
G: Klonel, okay. Interesting.
J: He ended up, when we came back, he ended up playing on “Moodsie” [Moody] Street there in one of
the big-time clubs with a Trio. Paul Desilets played piano.
G: Oh, Paul Desilets, yah.
J: I can’t think of the drummer’s name. Dick Derry. Dick Derry was the drummer.
G: Sorry, what did Klonel play?
13
�J: Klonel played tenor sax.
G: Tenor sax. Oh, okay.
J: He knew a million tunes.
G: Was he good?
J: Oh, he was very good. He knew a million tunes. Someone there saying, “Hey, can you play this?”
He’d play it.
G: I love the fact though, that he essentially negotiated with the captain. So you were in Germany, and
then when did you meet Dave Amram?
J: Well, that wasn’t until my experience at the (--)
G: In Dachau?
J: No, Dachau. Then I went to the 31st Army Band in Wurzburg. That was the black band.
G: Oh, was the band black? Were you the only white guy in that band?
J: No. There were two or three others when I got there.
G: Okay.
J: When I walked in with my trombone over my back, right, and this big dude was sitting. He looks up
and says, “Oh you the white boy!” And I said, “Yah, I be the white one. Where do white boy go?”
[Room] 244. I went up to the room and opened the door, and a shiv came right across my face.
G: Really, yah?
J: And I grabbed it. I didn’t say anything. And I’m saying, “I hope this thing is a weighted shiv.” And I
went, flung it back into the other wall. German war lockers were all wooden. Stuck in. And I said, thank
God it stuck in that. And I said something I’m not going to record, to the guy that did it. And I never had
any problems after that. And then once you get around you make friends. There was one trumpet
player, this black dude, he was a little bit older than most of the others. And wow, what a player he
was. Oh gee! And they had a big band. I have some pictures of that.
G: Okay, in Wurzburg?
J: Yah, 31st Army Band. And they had bandstands, you know, with everything. In one of the pictures,
I’m standing up taking a solo, and the other guy is doing a duet thing behind us.
G: Nice!
J: So, I’ve had that all over the place.
G: You’ve had that picture all over the place?
J: Yah. And then I was there, that was early ‘52. And I went to I think it was April fifty-two they came
around looking for horn players. Oh, and when I was in Germany, at the black band, the bass
trombonist of the Wurzburg Symphony, used to peddle his bike up. He had the first ever gig bag I ever
saw. He made it out of leather so he could strap the trombone around his back, and peddle his way [up
the hill]. Of course, all the facilities were up on the hill. So, he would peddle that bike up the hill. We
14
�had six trombone players at one time, and he was supposed to give them all lessons. None of the other
guys liked him. So, I took all the lessons.
G: Oh wow! Interesting.
J: And then he was a bass trombonist. So, then I started messing with that a little bit. And then when
they came around, James Dixon, who was the conductor of the 7th Army Symphony in fifty-two, came
around looking, different bands, looking for horn players. Because now the orchestra needed horn
players,, it started off as a chamber group. Samuel Adler started it. And there were like eighteen people
all strings mostly. And then they started adding woodwinds, you know, and stuff. And they they’re
going around looking for brass. And I auditioned for Jim Dixon, James Dixon, excuse me. Excuse me,
James. And anyhow, I auditioned with him, and he liked it. And we got along, you know, personally it
was good. He was as gayl, but you know, he didn’t [let] you know. And so, I went back, and I got
transferred to, let me see, I was in Wurzburg and then I went to Stuttgart. The 7th Army Symphony
Headquarters in Stuttgart, on the hill. You know, they took everything on hills, because all the other
German things were on a hill. And so, I was up Stuttgart Vaihingen they called it, and we were up there
up on the hill. And the first guy I met was Midhat Serbagi, [Midhat Serbagi, Jr., son of a well-known
Arab-American tenor Midhat Serbagi, Sr., who performed on radio and was a recording artist in the
1920s and 1930s] he was a violist. After we got out of there, he went to the Met Orchestra. And he
played for thirty-eight years with the Met, lead violist, number one. And he played his ass off. And we
were good friends.
And then his brother played cello. Let me see, there were two brothers. That’s when I met Dave
Amram.
G: Yah, in Stuttgart.
J: He had hair long hair, you know, looked like a hippy.
G: Even then, back in fifty-two.
J: And he used to have these cans about this big. And I said, he’s eating this, it’s like, I don’t know, sand,
right? I said, “What the hell are you eating?” “This is wheatgerm.” He was eating the wheatgerm out of
the can. “Do you want some?” I said, “No, I thought you were eating dirt. I don’t want to eat that.”
Well maybe I should have because he’s till gigging all over the world. I think he’s ninety-two now. And
he’s still got all his marbles, you know, more marbles than I have. Jesus, he’s an amazing (--)
G: He’s an amazing guy, truly. I’m very fortunate to have met him, thanks to you.
J: Well, you know, he played with all the jazz greats in the sixties. Dizzy Gillespie, all of them.
G: And he composed the soundtrack to “The Manchurian Candidate.”
J: Oh yah, and “Splendor in the Grass.”
G: That’s right.
J: That’s his too. He put me in one of his books, Kerouac Offbeat. It’s says offbeat on it. I’m on page
270 something. He gave me a page in the third.
G: This shouldn’t probably be on the recording, but I want you to know, I met you for a while, and then I
met Dave. I thought to myself, and he spoke well of you. I mean he just thought you were great. I
couldn’t think of two more different people, Amram. Is it Armenian? Do you know?
15
�J: I think he was Jewish.
G: Is he Jewish?
J: There might be some other thing.
G: Anyway, but it was just two striking, both very striking guys. And the fact that you guys were such
good friends.
J: Oh, we were very good friends. Yah, we were the best of friends. And Midhat Serbagi too. I was very
close to him. We all got together one time and decided to buy a car. And we ponied up about three
hundred bucks. And we went to this lot, and there was this, it looked like a Hitler car, right? It was a big
four-door thing with the wheels on the fenders. You know how they used to do them? Covered, with
the mirrors on top of those. And we said, how about that one? So, we negotiated. We bought it for
three hundred bucks. You had to hand choke it most of the time. And the sides would come up like this,
each side of the engine was long, you know. And so, we’d take turns choking it. They had to open it up,
take the air bonnet off, put your hand on the top of the carburetor. Okay, go ahead. Hey! Here we go.
We’re all set.
G: You’re tooling around Germany in this old military vehicle.
J: At one point after James Dixon left, Kenny Schermerhorn came in. He was a master musician. And he
was the lead trumpet player, originally, with us. And we were going to a gig. It was Schermerhorn, Dave
Amram, Midhat Serbagi, I forget, there was somebody else with us. There were five of us anyhow in this
wonderful vehicle driving to the gig, right! I was going about eighty kilometers an hour, you know,
buzzing along. There was no speed limit back then. I guess they have one now. There was no speed
limit then. You could go over 150 if you had a car door. So, we’re going down the highway and we hear
klonk! I go, what the [expletive] is that? I don’t know. The car was slowing down. And they’re saying
what the heck. Don’t slow down, we have a gig! Well, what was that thing back there? We had to pull
over. Somehow, I don’t know how we called, there were no cell phones then.
G: Of course.
J: Somebody must have come by and seen it. And so, they got a tow truck, and they towed us to this
garage. And they got the thing that fell down. It was the whole drive shaft! It just fell out of the thing.
So, anyhow, we got to the shop and the guy says in German, you know, hey, no bushings. Dave spoke
millions of languages, you know, including Portuguese.
G: Did he speak Portuguese?
J: Oh yah, he speaks Portuguese very well.
G: Wow, I didn’t know that.
J: Yah. And so, he’s talking to this German guy. And the guy is telling him we don’t have any bushings
for that. And I looked at him and I said, [In German] “Kann er [can he] weld it?” And he said, “Yah, he
can.” Yah, I know that. So, he welded the [expletive] thing up there. Oh god!
G: Sent you on your way.
J: On our way to the gig. We just made it. They couldn’t start. We had the conductor. We had the first
French horn, you know.
G: Of course, and you, trombone.
16
�J: There were a million more stories.
G: No, no, John. This is great.
J: You’re getting off the track here.
G: By the way, I’ve interviewed you before about, you know, your music and your career. I’ve never
heard some of these before. This is great stuff. Hey, but let me ask. Speaking of clubs, going back to
Back Central, I want to ask, what do you remember when you were young about the Portuguese
American Civic League, the Reds?
J: Not a hell of a lot.
G: Yah. Was your dad a member there?
J: No. He was a member of the other one.
G: The Portuguese American Center, the Blues.
J: Yah, the Blues. Because we used to rehearse the band there, in the band hall, and that was before
they put up the brick.
G: At one time that was the Portuguese Band building, where the Center is now.
J: Yah, the white building on the end of Chapel Street.
G: Exactly.
J: Yah, we used to rehearse, had band rehearsals there. And when they had something going on
upstairs, we’d rehearse downstairs. There’s like a bar area. Then you had to move all the seats and
stuff, make room, and everybody would sit. And Abel Alves was (--) The first conductor when I started
was Joe [Ferreira]. He was a skinny guy, a clarinet player. He conducted, you know, like a little person.
He was little. And he died. And Abel Alves took over.
G: Yes, he’s the name I remember.
J: Abel was a trumpet player. Abel Alves and Joe [Miguel]; they were the lead trumpet players. And
when I was a kid, they put me in between them. And they’d say, just get as many notes as you can.
Well within one year I was playing the part. And then when the other guy died, Abel took over. So, it
was Joe Miguel and myself, you know, playing.
G: And that was all at the Portuguese Band Building down there on Charles Street.
J: Portuguese Colonial Band. That was the name of it, Portuguese Colonial Band. And we rehearsed in,
we called it the band hall, that building, white building. And one time, later in life when I took over
conducting the Portuguese Band, you know, I came back from Germany. And I played in the band. And I
brought other guys in, friends, you know, we expanded the band. Once I got to ULowell, Lowell State,
Lowell Teachers, the first year, then I had met a lot of other guys and I used to bring them in to the
band.
G: Non-Portuguese, right?
J: Yah, non-Portuguese to enhance the band. You know, more trumpet players, more trombone
players, you know, great players. All great players. They all played somewhere in the armed services. In
the Navy, and you know, the Army, whatever. And so, you know, I was conducting that. You know,
17
�going back to when I was fifteen, the picture on the front of the recording that we did, you know, I’m
the third one on the left with the hat cocked. I always had to do something different, so the chicks
would look at it and say who’s that guy?
G: I know that picture.
J: But the history, I don’t know if you want to know the history of the band, or where you want me to go
now?
G: Here’s the thing. This is not central to your life, but I’m just in terms of Back Central, and the two
clubs there. One question I wanted to ask you about, the Reds and the Blues, as they came to be
known.
J: I don’t think they called it then.
G: No, they didn’t. That didn’t happen (--)
J: The PACL, Portuguese American Civic League.
G: By the way, I don’t think it became the Blues and the Reds until like the sixties, or seventies even. So,
but back then.
J: Probably the seventies.
G: By the way, just one thing. I didn’t realize this until I started looking into your family background,
Fernando Loureiro was one of the cofounders of the Portuguese American Center on Charles Street in
the late ‘50s. [Fernando Loureiro was one of John Leite’s uncles through his marriage to Adalice “Alice”
Teodomira da Cunha Leite, who was an aunt of John Leite] And they basically brought the property
from the Portuguese Colonial Band, which owned that building. So, they basically, you know, there’s an
exchange of real estate, and that’s where they set up. But the club, as you said, there was always a bar
down there, and from this club they created the Portuguese American Center.
J: It was a great thing. You know, later in life when I was conducting the band, I used to bring guys in
from school, college. Augie Silva was the helicon bass player. Helicon bass comes over your shoulder. I
have it in the attic. He willed it to me. Anyhow, he was funny. He could drink more than anybody I
knew.
G: He was a big guy, wasn’t he?
J: Oh, really big.
G: Because I met him.
J: I’ve got to digress here. Downstairs, when we were rehearsing, right, in the club.
G: This is at the Portuguese American Center, or the Club.
J: Yah, the Band Club I call it. And Abel Alves is conducting. And then he stops and says, “Augie, how
come you’re not playing?” Augie says, “I have four measures of shut up.” That’s what he used to call
rests. Yah, I have four measures of shut up.
G: Four measures of shut up. That’s good.
18
�J: Getting back to the club. Now we’re upstairs. We were finished rehearsal. We’re going to drink,
right. And this trumpet player friend of mine, Josh Norris, who 2017 died in a house fire with three of
his kids.
G: What was the name?
J: Josh Norris, N O R R I S. I met him at Lowell. He was a wonderful player. Anyhow, he was up in the
hall when Augie, and myself, David Taggert, who was a valve trombone player, a college friend, Tom
McGaw, he wound up teaching at Berkeley. He’s retired now. And we’re all drinking, right. And so,
Augie said, “Whoa, whoa, stop! Stop! Vehna aqui!” (Come over here). Sit at the big round table. He
says, “Okay, this is what I’m doing with this, okay. Everybody have one shot of liquor in the glass. You
can’t drink it all. One shot, and you got to wait, no beers, just shot, okay. And when I tell you, you drink
the shot, and drink a beer.” Okay. He lined them up. There were six of us. You know, hit the beer
chaser. Four of them didn’t last a minute. You know when you’re taking shots like that, you know, it’s.
So anyhow, two of the guys, they were out of it for Christ sakes. Of course, they had been drinking. And
so, Jack Norris, he disappeared from the hall. So, I went in the back room where the guys, the old guys
were playing cards. I says, in Portuguese, “Onde ele foi?” I’m looking, where the [expletive] did he go?
And there was a side door on Chapel Street, right, with a couple of steps. This is wintertime, right, big
snowbanks. He was so cocked, he opened the door, tripped and he went in headfirst into the
snowbank. He couldn’t move. So, we’re looking, and we opened the door. There’s Josh’s ass! We had
to get down, pull him out. I took him home to this house, put him in the bed, in the big bed down the
end of the hall. And his wife was here. They had six kids, but I think two or three of them were here.
The girl was laying underneath that orange chair, and the kids just fell, wherever it is. About an hour
later I hear [makes sound], he went running down the hall. I said, “If you’re going to throw up go to the
bathroom you dink.” He was big, 6’2” you know. I’m trying to drag him and he’s not moving. And he
went right against the wall, right. So, six hours later, he said, “Oh Jesus, what a night.” I said, “Here are
all the cleaning supplies.” “What’s that for?” “You got to go wash that wall down and clean up the rug.”
G: So that was life at the Blues Club there.
J: That was downstairs.
G: I know. Let me ask you one final question about the two clubs. Do you remember any difference
between the Civic League and the Portuguese American Center? I mean, why would, you know, who
would, would certain people go to the Civic League?
J: Yah, but you know, it’s like joining the Elks, or joining the Moose, or whatever. You know, you just
have friends there, you know, and your friends say, “Hey, come to this club. It’s a good club.” That’s
about all. There’s no animosity I don’t imagine.
G: No, no. I was just wondering for example, if basically if the Blues Club members were basically those
from Graciosa, where the Reds Club were those from Sao Miguel, or Terceira.
J: There’s some Madeirans too, Madeira.
G: Exactly right. Yah, so whether they tended to go to the Civic League, Madeirans, and the Azoreans
tended to go to the (--)
J: Yah, because of friendship.
G: Yah, gotcha.
J: You know, friendship on the Islands. The original islands.
19
�G: John, let me skip down. I want to ask you a couple of more things.
J: Okay, sure.
G: One is about Saint Anthony’s Church, which you already talked about a little bit. And you also talked
about kind of the early memories of the church. But do you remember, I mean you were there, when it
was still basically subterranean?
J: Oh sure, yah. As a matter of fact [it was] 1959. And my wife and I got married October 10, 1959. And
we wanted to get married in the Portuguese Church. It was my church, but it was under construction.
And so, Father Silva called around to all the churches to see what, you know. And they were all busy,
and they couldn’t take us. And we didn’t want to change the date. So, Saint Peter’s, Monsignor
[expletive] took us in. So, when we got there to talk, he found out that Melba was Protestant. And he
says, “You can’t get married in the upstairs church. She’s Protestant.” I said, “What the hell does that
mean?” We had to get married in the frick’in bottom church, because my wife was (--) You know, that
building is [expletive] gone now. So, that’s what you get there Monsignor. I did it in your whole
[expletive] building. You know, they were so stupid. But Melba said, “That’s all right. You know, let’s
just get married. The plans are here. The families are here.” You know, just do it.
G: Because Saint Anthony’s was under construction, you had to go to Saint Peter’s.
J: Yah. He wanted to send me to the Polish Church.
G: On High Street?
J: Yah, but they were booked too. He called around to all the churches.
G: Because there was a Portuguese Church in Lawrence too.
J: Yah, we didn’t want to go to Lawrence. I know exactly where that is. We’ve done gig down there.
But no, it happened. And our friend Bob sang. He’s got a great voice. He sang the service. So once, you
know, you don’t realize you’re in the cellar of the church, you know, we just do it. You know, the priest,
you get married, and Bob is singing, our friend is singing, and it was beautiful. The whole thing was
beautiful.
G: Hey John, let me ask you, moving to the next section [of the interview]. I want to talk to you about
some of the Portuguese of your father’s generation. From your memory of your father’s generation,
who would you say were the important figures in Lowell, or important to you.
J: Mr. Silva, Danny Silva who owned a market down the bottom of Back Central Street. It’s a liquor
store now. Danny Silva was a big time. I’ll tell you how good he was. And across the street was the
bakery.
G: Barry’s Bakery at one time, right?
J: Yah, Barry, yah. When they used to have the Feast, right, all the meat would be prepared at Danny’s
market. They marinated it, the old guys. My father and those guys would go and marinate the meats.
G: At the market?
J: At the market. And they would leave them in the refrigerator. And then Saturday morning of the
Feast, I got booked by my father to help. And we went to Danny’s and carried all those pans, by hand,
over to Barry’s to cook them. To partially cook them. Like you say, parboil, you know? Just partially
cook them in there, because then you’re going to cook them up at Holy Ghost Park.
20
�G: Holy Ghost Park.
J: So, then the van comes. You got all these pans. They’re trying to straighten all these pans out in the
van. Whoever was driving, I don’t remember, you got to go slow, “vai devagar,” not to spill anything.
And so, we go up to the Holy Ghost Park, take all those pans out into the kitchen. And the women
would fix it up, you know, put them in the oven for Sunday’s meal. And they’d cut all of the (--) They
used to use dry blood, you know, and dry blood could cut in chunks, right. Looked like liver. Oh, liver is
a lot of blood too, but they cut them in chunks like about like that big. And so then put them in the
soup, chunks in the soup for the taste. And I told you I had a lot of friends from Lowell. Well Dick
O’Shea, who became a State Trooper, he’s retired now, was a Sousaphone player, and Frank Page. They
were both Sousaphone players for Lowell High where I was. So, I got them into the band.
G: The Colonial Band.
J: Yah, Colonial Band. So, Dick was a big, tall guy, 6’3” or something. And so, he’s eating the soup. He
says, “Wow, this soup was great. Oh, I loved the liver. Jesus, that liver was so easy. You don’t even
have to chew it. It mushes in your mouth. It’s great. Can I get some more of that?” I said, “Yah, you
want some more? I’ll get you a little plate.” So, I went into the kitchen. I knew all the ladies there. My
mother’s there. I bring it over to him, he pops them all in, right. “Ah, [expletive] great. Oh, I love this.
I’ve never eaten liver that’s so easy to eat. You don’t even have to chew it.” So, when he was all done
eating, it was break, right. We were going to go back to play. I said, “You liked that liver huh?” “Oh, it
was great.” I said, “You know what it is? Coagulated dry blood.” He went outside by the tree. He
upchucked his whole meal.
G: So, Danny Silva was one. Who else of your father’s generation would you think?
J: Barros, the Barry, Barry’s Bakery. And let me see. Oh, Brockelman’s Market.
G: Brockelman’s, yah.
J: It was downtown Lowell, on the corner of Bridge Street and Merrimack Street. You know when you
come out of Prescott Street, is one way, right? And then you go across to Bridge Street, right there, that
corner. It’s been a million things since then. I think it’s a secondhand store now, or something. But that
was a market. Brockelman’s Market. And you walk in the door on this side, and the meat counter was
raised way up high. So, you’re looking at the guy up there. And I had a godfather who was a meat guy
there.
G: Oh! What was his name? Do you remember?
J: I don’t.
G: That’s okay. That’s all right.
J: I’m thinking when you’re leaving I’ll send you a text.
G: No worries. That’s okay.
J: He was my godfather. He used to save great cuts of meat for us.
G: Anyway, so he worked at Brockelman’s.
J: Brockelman’s, yah, Market. That was a big market. You know, that was great, because people who
lived downtown and worked in the mills, right, they stayed in the mill houses. They could walk to a
store and get food. You know, it was a full market, full supermarket.
21
�G: Who else, John, of your father’s generation, and mother’s generation, that you know, you remember
as a kid were kind of important figures?
J: I don’t know. My father went to the club, but he wasn’t a clubber.
G: He was not.
J: No, he wasn’t a club guy, because he was usually working in the mills, or at home. He wasn’t a person
that would go to a club and all of a sudden have nine people around him.
G: That’s okay. Let me shift gears.
J: He was a more quiet guy. He could be loud. I found that out as a kid, but mostly he was a quiet guy,
you know, kept to himself, his friends, relatives, and that was about it.
G: I’m going to name some people in a few minutes from your father’s generation. But one other thing
I really wanted to ask you about, this is kind of interesting. I didn’t know this until I started studying
Lowell’s Portuguese, but up until, you know, basically immigration, not just Portuguese, everyone, in
1924 a very strict immigration law was passed. And it essentially cut off immigration from every place.
And it didn’t change until the sixties, but for Portuguese, the volcanic eruption on the Island of Faial,
special legislation was passed that John Kennedy as a Senator was involved with. And so basically it
liberalized immigration for Azoreans, beginning in fifty-seven. So, some of them started coming and
came to Lowell in basically 1960 and thereafter, but then I think it was in sixty-five there was a federal
revision to the immigration, National Immigration Law which eliminated quotas. And that meant that
more and more people could come to the U.S. from everywhere. But what’s interesting for Portuguese,
many from the Azores beginning in sixty-five began to come to Lowell. Many of them were from
Graciosa, Terceira, some from Sao Miguel, some from mainland Portugal, but the fact is there was this (-) And by the way, Lowell at that time, every decade was losing population, okay. You know, the city
was depressed. But there was this wave of Portuguese, mostly from the Azores, but some from Madeira
too by the way, they’d come to Lowell and many of them settled in Back Central. It’s people like some
you know, like Luis Gomes, he was part of that wave. Demos Espinola, and Maria Cunha, they were all
part of that. But I just wondered, my question to you is, do you remember? Because you were in Lowell
at that time, this was in the sixties and seventies. Do you remember this new wave of Portuguese
coming into the city?
J: Oh sure, because you know, they have a band now, a Portuguese, they have a Portuguese Band. As a
matter of fact, my Greek friend is conducting it, Louie Stamas.
G: Yes, I know him.
J: But it was different when that wave came in.
G: That’s what I was going to ask you. What was different about it?
J: They come in more in groups, because of the law that you talked about. Then instead of one family
coming, you know, it was a whole bunch of families coming in. And so, it was different because they
were groups. They had their own friends and clicks. When my parents came here, you know, that was
what was it? 19? 1918. I think it was 1918. And that was so different. I mean Ellis Island was a
[expletive] zoo to get through. My father told me stories while they were there. It’s like the Godfather
when the kid comes over, right.
G: He’s quarantined.
22
�J: Yah, and you know, you on one of these lines for hours and hours. And you can’t say anything. You
can’t talk to anybody else. Now they walk right over the [expletive] border.
G: No, no, but I think one difference is that when the second wave came from the Azores for example,
many of them, they just flew right to Logan. And came to Logan and then went, you know, had family
meet them, because they had to be sponsored by the way. But the families would meet them and bring
them to Lowell. They didn’t have to file to Ellis Island like your parents did. So that’s one difference.
J: That’s a big difference, because in order for my mom (--) My father didn’t come with my mother. My
mother came alone, with others, but he was the baby of nine. And the two next were twin boys. And
when they became teenagers they said, “We’re getting out of here.”
G: From Brazil.
J: No, not from Brazil. No.
G: From Graciosa?
J: From Graciosa. They’re saying, “We’re getting out of here and we’re going to take you with us,
because you’re the smallest. There’s no reason you hang around.” So, they went to Brazil. My father
lived there I don’t know how long. He hated it, every minute. So, one of the brothers, I think it was
John, paid my father’s passage, boat passage that come up to the United States, up to you know,
Boston, and then to Lowell. My father never told me why he hated it, but I think it had something to do
with the living there in those favelas, you know, they’re stacked up on the side of the hill and it’s all
living like crap.
G: But again, thinking about this new wave that came in here in the sixties and seventies, from what
you saw, did you see, I mean did it bring a new kind of culture, a new Portuguese culture? Did it
revitalize Back Central?
J: It wasn’t a new culture. It was the old culture, you know, revived. Maybe that’s a better word. You
know, because I did the Portuguese, I conducted a Portuguese Band when I came back from the Army,
and I was at Lowell, and that’s when I brought my friends in and expanded the band. And then when I
left that, that’s when I created the Leite Concert Winds; started doing union gigs.
G: This was in the sixties?
J: Yah, and that’s when I started doing union gigs. And it was the right thing for me to do because I had
been a member of the union since I was, since I came back from Germany. That’s when I joined.
Actually I’m in my 65th year of the American Federation of Musicians. My last convention in Vegas, I was
the small locals committee chair for years. And I was giving my report, small locals, right. And I said, “By
the way, you know.” I think I said it was the 64th because that was a Wednesday, and it wasn’t the 65th
until Thursday. And I said, “I got to tell everybody here I appreciate you all. I’ve known many of you
over the years. This is my last convention. I’m going to retire as President of the Merrimack Valley
Musicians. Thank you very much.” I turned around and the president, right here, said, “Turn around,
look back out.” I had a standing O {ovation}. And I have a recording of it. They gave me a video
recording of it.
G: What year was that, John?
J: Two years ago. They gave me a video of it.
G: Wow.
23
�J: I have it on my computer.
G: This was in Vegas?
J: Yah.
G: Where was this?
J: Westgate. Crappy hotel. It used to be the Hilton, the Las Vegas Hilton where Elvis Presley was. They
had Presley pictures all over the place.
G: Oh, so this was in the older part. This isn’t the, whatever that strip is out there with all the big new
stuff, right? This is back.
J: No, no, this is the street behind the Paradise.
G: No, I know where you mean.
J: The strip runs here, and then one street back. It’s actually the street that goes right to the airport.
And on that street, it’s the last thing at the end. And it’s crappy because if you wanted to go someplace,
you know, you got a pretty long walk. And then they started the tramway, but it doesn’t stop, for
whatever reason, and the Wynn Resort. And that’s the one I like to go to only because in the late sixties
and early seventies that was where the Desert Inn was. And they flipflopped them. The Desert Inn used
to be right on the corner of that street, and the parking lot was to the right. Then when they built the
Wynn Tower, right, they moved the Wynn Tower to where the parking lot was, and then they built the
Encore, where the Desert Inn used to be. So, I’m very familiar.
G: I know you’ve been there many times. You played there.
J: I used to go out there every two years. My friend and I had a business, a junket business. I don’t
know if I told you. In order to get the junket business, you had to clear it with the mafia. And across
where the Boston Garden, it’s still there Boston Garden, it’s different. Diagonally across the street used
to be Polcari’s Restaurant, Italian joint. And you walk in, on the left there’s swinging doors like the old
cowboy things, to go into the bar. And if you go around to the right, that’s the restaurant. Every
Monday night at 9:00 one of his lieutenants would come in. And whoever was in the bar, “Hey folks,
we’d appreciate it if you’d move into the restaurant, because we’re having a meeting here.” And no
one would say no. They’d get up and get the [expletive] out. And so, the first time we had to go, this
partner and I, we’re sitting at the end of the lounge. And after the lieutenant cleared it, he comes in
sitting at a big round thing. And he calls, “Bring somebody up.” So, Dick said, Dick Madison.
G: It’s your turn now.
J: Dick Madison went up. And maybe he was up there ten minutes, whatever. And okay, go up. I went
up. And Jerry would stand up and he says, “What’s your name?” I said, “John Leite.” “Leite. What kind
of a name is that?” I said, “It’s mine.” And they’re saying, you know. I said, “It’s Portuguese.” “Oh,
Portuguese! I like the Portuguese.” Then he squeezed my hands. So, I squeezed his hand harder. He
says, “You’re okay kid. Okay.” [I] went back and sat down. So, now we’re waiting. The lieutenant came
[over and said], “You can start your business.” So, we started. We had an office, fifteenth floor of
Charles River Park. You know where that is?
G: So, and what was the business though. I didn’t quite get it? What was it?
J: Advertising.
24
�G: Okay.
J: Advertising. We did advertising for every TV station and radio station, you know. Dick was a very
good writer. He wrote copy. A lot of copy. He’s a really smart guy, and he was quick witted. And he
would write all the copy for that. And I ran the office thing. We had one girl at the time. And so, we
had a friend in the North End. We talked about junkets, you know, because we know a lot of people.
Like to go from Revere, from Saugus and you know, they want to go pay us and gamble. Late sixties,
early seventies.
G: I see.
J: So, that’s why we had to go through that. And he said, “okay.” Now the first week we got a plane
loaded, right, 232 people, or whatever it is. I got a phone call. “Hello, Las Vegas executives. Can I help
you?” “Four seats in the next flight.” I said, “You know, I’d like to do that, but we’re totally booked.”
He said, “You don’t [expletive] hear. I want four [expletive] seats on the next [expletive] flight. You
under [expletive] stand that?” I said, “Well what do you expect me to do with those four people I’m
going to bump?” He said, “We’ll take care of them. We’ll send them first class, TWA, the next flight.”
“Okay, let me call you back.” Then I called four, two guys and their wives in Revere. I said, “You get
bumped for a [expletive] week. You’re going first class.” TWA had those lounges upstairs in the big
bubble. And the booze it up there. “Oh, that’s even better. Okay.” “You’re first class.” So, there’s four
guys, then they did their business, whatever it was. And then after that I was golden. We started
booking more of their guys than the tourists, because they liked the way we handled everything. And
we had a tall blonde [woman]. And she wasn’t putting out, or anything, but she was quick witted, you
know, she was funny.
G: How long were you in this business? For how many years?
J: Just two, I think. Two or three? It might have been three.
G: Yah, okay.
J: You know, every two weeks one of us was out there. Sometimes we’d both go out depending on
what was happening out there. You know, we’d go to the Desert Inn, and we had all those people. And
some people are awful gamblers. One guy from, I think he was from Medford, owned a machine shop.
And he was an awful gambler. He had a line of $10,000. He blew that in the first ten minutes. The
whole line. And he brought his wife with him. She was a nice, little, short chubby lady. So anyway,
she’s upstairs in the room, and he’s (--)
G: Losing all his money.
J: Yah. So, anyhow, he says, “I need an extension,” you know. I said, “I don’t know. You’re on that list
you know.” He said, “I know. But, you know, I’m good for it.” So I went, had to go see Earlene in the
back. She says, “We’ll give him a $1,000, that’s it.” So, I said, “Okay.” I come back, “You got a $1,000.”
“A 1,000? I want a [expletive] $10,000.” “All I’m going to give you is a [expletive] $1,000. You want to
go argue with them? I don’t think it’s a good idea, because there’s some guys there that won’t let you
argue.” “No, [expletive] it.” Boom! The [expletive] grand is gone. He put up his [expletive] business.
He went across the street to the [Frontier].
G: Another Casino anyway, yah.
J: [The Frontier] is gone too now. He went across the street, and he got a line of five. He blew that. He
kept blowing lines. So, I told him, I said, “Tonight you’re going to the show.” I don’t remember what the
25
�show was. And I said, “And your wife is going.” “What do you mean I’m going to the show with my
wife?” I said, “She’s been sitting in that [expletive] room while you’re [expletive] blowing your business.
You got to take her to this [expletive] show. It’s paid for, but you’re going to take her.” So, when it was
time for showtime, I went up and got his wife and brought her down. Okay, go. They went into the
show. I said, you know, let her enjoy something for Christ sake. And they come out of the show, and I
got them dinner. And you’re sitting, and you’re going to eat. He went back and he lost his business and
everything. He lost his wife. Some guys were smarter gamblers, you know.
G: Yah, not this guy.
J: This guy, you know, it’s a disease. When you get it in your [expletive] head, and you think you’re
going to keep winning. I mean I always had a limit when I did sit down. I played blackjack. And when I
did sit down, I had a limit to myself.
G: That’s a smart way of playing.
J: If I blow the limit, that’s it! You know, next time.
G: Hey, finally, just let me ask you about a few different people here from Lowell. First of all, again,
totally shifting gears, but to Father Grillo. What are your first memories of Father Grillo?
J: I told you.
G: Yes, but we didn’t have the recorder running. Sorry.
J: Okay, Father Grillo was the best priest. John Silva was okay. He had the fastest Mass in the world,
but Father Grillo was an older man, and he was so good to us altar boys. They didn’t have altar girls
back then. It was just boys. And there was never any question of any sexual advances, or any of that
stuff with him.
G: John, you know how some priest can be pretty formidable? Was Father Grillo more kind of a down
to earth guy?
J: Well, you know, he’s down to earth because I told you about the wine and the paper hosts.
G: Yes, you’d go down to get the wine, and.
J: Well, we took turns. Whose turn is it now? Go to the wine cellar, pick something out. Come back,
we sit down. This is after the 11:30 Mass on Sunday. And four of us, Freddie Furtado, Eddie Silva,
myself, and Father Grillo, would sit down and just talk. It could be about anything. About school, you
know. He’d talk about me. He’d talk about any subject.
G: No kidding.
J: And he was very easy to talk to.
G: Was he?
J: Yah. So, you know, it was a good (--)
G: By the way, was this all in Portuguese you were talking, speaking?
J: Sometimes, but mostly (--) The other two guys didn’t speak very well. Freddie Furtado and Eddie
Silva didn’t get into the Portuguese.
26
�G: So, a lot of the conversation with Father Grillo was in English.
J: Yah.
G: Yah, interesting.
J: And once in a while he’d throw a few Portuguese things in there to see if the other guys would react.
He was just a great guy, and smart. Smart as a whip.
G: What did his voice sound like? Do you remember?
J: Oh, if I had to categorize it, I would say a baritone.
G: Uh huh! Yah. Did he have a pretty strong voice?
J: Yes.
G: Did he?
J: I don’t want to say forceful, but it was very easy to hear and understand.
G: Yes. And what were his Masses like when he would give (--)
J: He was longer than John Silva. Nobody was as fast as John Silva. But he would be a normal, you
know, like a High Mass, he’d be an hour, and hour and fifteen minutes.
G: Right.
J: But the regular masses, he’d still, it would still be an hour. And when John Silva came in, twenty-five
minutes in and out!
G: What did the parishioners think of Father Grillo? Do you remember?
J: He was a man that was adored, you know. People loved him because he was a great person.
G: Yes.
J: And he spoke a lot, individually to people. People who needed some help. He was open. He had
open doors. And that’s what made him such a great guy. You know, you go to the Sacristy Building, ring
the bell. He’d come to the door. Come on in, sit down, and talk about anything you wanted.
G: Did your parents think highly of him too?
J: Oh, of course. They were so glad I was an altar boy. And so was I, not getting pinched in the ass
[during Mass by my mother]. It was called beliscão.
G: What is that?
J: That’s a pinch in the ass. Beliscão. And my mom was a tiny lady, but boy she had strong hands; well,
she worked at the mills.
G: She kept you in line though, right, by doing that.
J: She was a strong lady. She had strong hands, man.
27
�G: One other thing. I don’t expect you to know this, but Father Grillo came to Lowell out of Saint John’s
Seminary. He was at another church at one point, and then came to Lowell. He initially assisted Bishop
DeSilva, who was the priest. Believe it or not he was a Bishop from Portugal, who, through a variety of
circumstances, wound up at Saint Anthony’s. He was the second priest at Saint Anthony’s. It’s rare, to
say the least, that a Bishop is the priest. Buy anyway, so, Father Grillo assisted Bishop DeSilva for about
a year, and then Bishop DeSilva went back to Portugal. And Father Grillo became the priest. However,
the wonderful Cardinal O’Connell did not appoint Father Grillo as the priest. He had him as a, what is it
called? An administrator. And I don’t know why. Because again, Father Grillo got his, was ordained out
of Saint John’s Seminary, you know where Boston, Boston College is. But for some reason Cardinal
O’Connell, who called the shots in the Archdiocese.
J: He was a prick.
G: So, did you know about Cardinal O’Connell back in the day?
J: Yah, he was a prick.
G: So, the thing is, in nineteen, sometime in the thirties, finally, after all the hard work that Father Grillo
had done for the parish, he was made the priest. And do you know that there was, at the auditorium
there was this huge dinner celebrating. That’s how popular Father Grillo was.
J: I think I have a picture of those dinners.
G: Yah. Anyway, though it’s not surprising. I appreciate your memories of him, because from what I’ve
read about him, he was a very impressive guy, and he couldn’t have been more different. Bishop
DeSilva was related to the King of Portugal. Father Grillo came from Sao Miguel, was a laborer in
Hudson, Massachusetts, when he was a teenager. Worked in a shoe factory and then went to a couple
of different seminaries. But essentially, he was a factory worker. Learned English, you know, through
night school. Worked his way up. So, he was considered more, if you will, kind of a man of the people,
than Bishop DeSilva. You know, this regal Catholic figure.
J: Yah, I didn’t know him at all.
G: So that name doesn’t (--)
J: No. Father Grillo was the priest that I remember when I started.
G: Okay. And then, you know, the thing is, Father Grillo, I think worked so hard, his health suffered, and
I think he died in ’46 or ‘47.
J: Yah, I was in high school. No, I wasn’t. Yah, I was in high school.
G: Yah, because you would have graduated.
J: ‘50, 1950.
G: In fifty, right. So, the thing is, one of the things that Father Grillo did, which I found interesting, he
knew that he wasn’t long for this world, and he wanted to make sure that Portuguese priest continued
at Saint Anthony’s. So, he had some contacts in Portugal, and that’s how we got Father John Silva, from
Lisbon, to come to Lowell, before he died in forty-seven. So, when Father Grillo died, it wasn’t Cardinal
O’Connell by that point. It could have been Cushing. I forget.
J: Cushing, I think.
28
�G: But anyway, that’s how Father John became the priest at Saint Anthony’s. But you clearly remember
Father John Silva.
J: Oh yah, when he first started there, he said, “Okay boys, twenty-five minutes. If I go twenty-six, tell
me.”
G: He’d tell this to the altar boys?
J: Yah. And you know, zip, zip, yup. What the [expletive]? It’s over. You know, it was that quick. Even
the High Mass, it might go to twenty-seven, twenty-eight, but not much longer. He never went over
thirty in a High Mass. “There’s no need to,” he says. “Some of the stuff,” he says, “you can leave out.”
That’s what he was doing, leaving some of the mass out.
G: Apart from that though, Father Grillo and Father John Silva were very different.
J: Oh, absolutely.
G: How would you describe, what were the differences, the main differences between those two?
J: Well, we talked about Father Grillo a lot. So, that’s that person. And Father John was like a new kid
on the block. Not that we would know to say “hey guy,” or anything like that.
G: Yes, it was more formal.
J: You know, respected him. But until we got to know him, like anybody else, you know, you go to
school, you’re a new teacher in the building. You got to learn the other people and how to react to
certain people. The same thing with Father John. Father Grillo was so easy, but you know, Father John
was easy after the fact. You had to wait. He never said it, but there was like a timeline that he would
test, you know, see all the altar boys. How’s this kid? Did this kid learn any Latin yet? Or this kid didn’t
know the phrases, you know the ding, ding? And then he would go, ding, ding, ding, and he’d make his
order, you know. But I was taught and brought up that you respect your elders, regardless of who they
are. And then the priest was even more. So, [Father] John was just a young kid on the block. That’s
how I could explain it. He was so easy to talk to like Father Grillo, but he was more of an, I don’t know,
an outward guy.
G: What do you mean?
J: I don’t know. He was more like he came out of a college, a college senior and he’s got a new gig. And
he’s still relating to the younger kids. John did too. I mean Father Grillo did, you know, but they were
two different people. Father Grillo was a little bit stayed back, but you know, you see this respect come
right away. Father John, the respect had to be there, but you’re testing. You’re always testing.
G: I see.
J: And that’s what happens with any new person you meet. We sit down and talk, and you see where
that person is coming from. And are you full of [expletive]? Well, this conversation is over. You know
that kind of thing.
G: So over time though, I mean, because he was the longest serving priest at Saint Anthony’s.
J: I was gone at age eighteen anyway. I went into the service then.
G: So, but you came back. Well, but you were back at Saint Anthony’s by the late fifties, right? Were
you still attending church at Saint Anthony’s?
29
�J: Yah, when I got out of the service. I got out in ‘54.
G: Fifty-four, okay. And you did come back to Lowell right away, right?
J: Oh yah.
G: So, did you resume at being at Saint Anthony’s then?
J: Yah, I was with my parents. Now my father is on Bowden Street for the second time. Seventeen and
nineteen Bowden Street, on the righthand side, three houses down from the right, from Gorham Street.
And my father owned, he owned the house first time. No, he was renting there. We had the second
floor.
G: I think he finally bought the house at Sayles Street, right?
J: Yah, when I was a senior in high school that’s when he bought the house on Sayles Street. First time
he owned a house. Getting back to Bowden Street, the second time we were there, my sister Helen
moved in across the street in a little cottage. I don’t remember the number. It was a cottage then. It
wasn’t a double decker. It was like a cottage.
G: On Bowden Street.
J: Yah, on Bowden Street. She married Roger Sanborn, who was a big time Ray Riddick football player at
Lowell High.
G: Oh, it that right?
J: He was the center for the offensive line.
G: I meant to ask you. So, when you guys were on Bowden Street for the second time, when you would
go to church services, would you drive to Saint Anthony’s, take the car?
J: I’m trying to think. My father had a car by then. It took him a long time to get a car. The money was
(--) Cars were only four hundred bucks, but he didn’t have four hundred bucks. He finally got a fourdoor car. We used to drive to church. The first one was a big Nash.
G: Yah, sure. I remember the Nash.
J: And it had the tires on the fenders, with the mirrors on the top. And the back had little curtains.
Esther Stirk, a blonde chick. Oh, this is even before. This is when I was at Robello’s house. That’s when
he owned the Nash. And Esther Stirk lived next door. A cute blonde chick. And we used to go in the
back of my father’s Nash and pull the curtains down. It had regular curtains with tassels. We’d pull all
the curtains down. This was kissy face, you know. We were kids just experimenting.
G: So, the other thing too. I should ask you, but you’ve been going to Saint Anthony’s for a long time,
right? Do you still go to Saint Anthony’s?
J: No.
G: When did you stop going? Just roughly.
J: Roughly, I don’t know. Maybe after we were married, in fifty-nine.
G: In fifty-nine. Okay. So, really, you knew Father John in the fifties, and after that, because you
weren’t going to Saint Anthony’s.
30
�J: No.
G: Let me ask you about some other Portuguese that were your father’s generation. Do you remember
a man name Firmo Correia?
J: Vaguely.
G: He had a son name Manny who was President of the Holy Ghost Society in the seventies.
J: Yah, I remember Manny.
G: Do you remember Manny?
J: Yah.
G: You guys weren’t friends, but you knew Manny.
J: Yah, I knew him. That’s it.
G: But Firmo Correia, that name doesn’t really (--)
J: No.
G: How about Deolinda Mello, who was the head of the (--)
J: Deolinda Mello.
G: Deolinda Mello, yes. Do you remember her?
J: I remember the name. I think maybe I could come up with what she looked like.
G: No, that’s okay. You didn’t know her well, but you knew her reputation.
J: I knew her, yah.
G: Did you know John Silva of the Silva Brothers?
J: Of course. Oh, I can tell you stories, John Silva.
G: Did you know him pretty well?
J: Oh yah. When I was fifteen or so, I worked at Spinney’s Garage.
G: Oh, you worked at Spinney’s?
J: Yah, I worked at Spinney’s Garage.
G: Did you know Domingos Spinney? Domingos?
J: Yah, Domenic.
G: Domenic.
J: Yah, he was a watchmaker.
G: Wow, you knew him.
J: Yah, he’s the watchmaker. Tommy was the brother, one of the brothers. A bunch of brothers. And
Tommy owned the garage. And he ultimately had his six kids when he was there. And I knew the girls.
31
�G: And you worked at the garage?
J: Yah, for two years. I started, I used to buzz cars in and out. Hey Johnny, go get the Ford! Okay. I
could put cars in narrow spaces. That’s how I really learned how to drive.
G: What do you remember about the Spinney Brothers? Do you remember much of anything about
those guys?
J: Leo was kind of an outcast of Tommy. He was a painter. He had a painting business. The original
thing, they were all painters, the family, John Silva.
G: No, I was asking you about the Spinneys.
J: Oh, you’re talking about the Spinneys.
G: Sorry, yah. I was asking about the Spinneys, because I didn’t know you worked at the garage. Do
you remember anything about the (--)
J: Sure, I remember Manny. There were two Portuguese guys. I know one guy who lived over in Swede
Village. Johnny.
G: That’s okay, John.
J: The monument guys.
G: Oh Luz?
J: Luz, Joe Luz was a mechanic. He was a navy mechanic. And he got out of the service, and he worked
for Tommy. And there was Manuel something, an older guy.
G: Okay. Manuel wasn’t a Spinney though, right?
J: No. And there was Billy Riggs, a big, tall guy. He was a prick, a big, tall guy.
G: He wasn’t Portuguese though?
J: No. Billy Riggs. The man used to come around with the milk wagon. And he used to chugalug the
buttermilk. Buttermilk, he used to chugalug that. I could tell you a lot of stories about Billy Riggs.
G: That’s okay.
J: Anyhow, the Spinneys, Domenic was a quiet guy. He was a jeweler. He owned a jewelry shop
somewhere. He fixed watches. He always had that magnifying thing in his eyes every time you’d go to
see him. And Tommy, and Leo, Leo was a painter too. Originally, they were all painters. And there was
one son, I don’t know what was wrong with him. Something was wrong with him in the brain. They
lived right on, and they moved here. They lived on Chelmsford Street.
G: This is the Spinney Family?
J: Spinney. No, Silva.
G: No, okay. I’m sorry. I was asking about the Spinneys.
J: You asked me if I knew John Silva too.
G: Well, yah, but I didn’t realize you worked at Spinney’s Garage. So that’s why I was shifting over to
the Spinney Family.
32
�J: Well, that’s the connection with Silva.
G: Okay. Sorry, what is the connection?
J: The connection with Silva, is John Silva used to bring his car. It looked like a Mark, some kind of a
Mark, a Lincoln Mark, the two-door, you know.
G: He had it serviced at the Spinney Garage?
J: Yah, and he had a big black and gray Shepherd [dog]. “Major,” he called him. He was always in the
back seat, because John owned properties all over the city, big tenements, and stuff.
G: Yes, he did. Huge owner.
J: And he used to collect cash and put it in a paper bag. Put the cash in a paper bag and put it in the
back seat with Major. Nobody would go there! And so this one time some guy, he was down on Mill
Street, you know, that’s off of Back Central? Goes down, you know, Lawrence Street?
G: I know what you mean.
J: He was collecting rents there. And some “jerko” saw that bag of cash, right. He opened the door. He
didn’t see Major in the back seat. Major went out and grabbed him by the side of the chest and ripped
his frick’in skin off the side of his chest. And John come out, “All right Major. It’s all right.” And he said,
“Go home kid.” You wouldn’t get in that car. If you knew you wouldn’t get in that car, and all that cash,
thousands of dollars. And he used to have his car serviced. And there was a lady, Mrs. Pimber or
something, would come. It was a 1929 Ford, or something, four-door. You know, some boxy thing,
bring her car to be serviced. Well she and Tommy would get in John’s car, and they’d go off somewhere.
G: Right, right.
J: And Silva owned racing cars. There used to be a racetrack in Dracut, someplace in Dracut. And the
top speed was like eighty miles an hour. It was in the mud. Like a mud track. And Tommy used to
service the racing cars.
G: Oh, okay.
J: And so when those people were off on their journey going wherever, the mechanics would take a
repair plate and put it on the back of the racing car, and I’d drive up and down A Street, B Street, C, and
drive them in and over. You got to be back at such and such a time. Okay. Because Tommy will be
back, and if you’re out there, you’re going to lose your job. Okay. So, I’d time it, right. And I’d go up
and down A Street, B Street, C Street.
G: You were out of high school when you were working for the Spinneys?
J: No, I was in high school.
G: Were you in high school working?
J: Yah, I was fifteen.
G: Yah, working for the Spinneys.
J: Two years I did.
G: Where was their garage again, the Spinneys?
33
�J: Corner of C Street and Powell.
G: C Street and Powell, okay.
J: There’s another family; a guy and sons. I don’t know who they are, but they took it over. Young
Tommy owned it for a long time. And his brother Jackie was Johnny Silva’s godson. So, when Silva died,
he left Jackie [a good sum of money].
G: Really? Wow!
J: And he owed Tommy some money too. But his godson, he took care of his godson. It was Jack
Spinney, Jackie Brady the fighter, the boxer, and another guy whose name I don’t remember. It was the
book guy, you know, the bookkeeper kind of guy. And they bought the old Marty’s for Parties on
Chelmsford Street. Now it’s a whole bunch of different things, but it was upstairs. That’s actually, we
had our wedding party up there, Marty’s for Parties.
G: Oh, did you really?
J: Yah, you come in from Temple Street. You go around, you drive up Temple Street, and there’s a
walkway down into the second floor. Yah, I had all my guys from the college in there rotating. They had
a band, the whole four-hour band.
G: Speaking of Brady and fighter, boxers, who’s the very well-known Portuguese fighter in the sixties in
Lowell? Fifties, sixties.
J: [Arthur] Ramalho used to be the boxer instructor.
G: No, no, but this was (--) He actually (--)
J: I don’t know. I didn’t follow boxing that much.
G: Okay. You’d know the name. I’m sorry I can’t remember this guy [Manny Freitas]. By the way,
there’s a wonderful photograph of him in the bar on Chelmsford Street, you know, the Irish, the Gaelic
Club? I think it’s gone now.
J: Oh, that’s gone. That’s the same place I’m talking about, Marty’s for Parties.
G: Oh, yes. Is that where that was?
J: Jackie named it the Gaelic Club for his mother who was Irish.
G: I see, but in that bar, there was a great picture of this Portuguese fighter [Freitas] and a former
neighbor of yours, Jackie McDermott. It’s a great picture.
J: Jackie McDermott used to live up our street.
G: It was a great picture because there’s McDermott sitting at the bar, and this was probably taken in
the sixties. And there’s [Freitas] wearing his boxing trunks. He’s like Hollywood, good looking boxer
with Jackie McDermott. It’s an incredible photograph.
J: You know, Jackie ended up being connected a little bit.
G: Was he?
J: Jackie McDermott, I know when he got shot. We all knew here on the street. He was a good guy
actually, you know. You never wanted to fight him because he was a hell of a fighter. Not a boxer, a
34
�fighter. He could knock anybody on their ass regardless of size. But I got to know him not as a good
friend, but you know.
G: Well, he was a neighbor right? He lived up the street.
J: And I knew him before he moved here.
G: Oh, okay.
J: With the other connections in Lowell. But when he moved up there, you know, he’d be out in the
yard. I’d drive by, “Hey Jackie.” “Hey, how are you doing?” Then the night it happened, when he got
shot, I’m trying to think of the kid’s name. I can’t think of the kid’s name that shot him.
G: Oh, Barnowsky, or something like that?
J: No, Barnowsky ordered the hit. He didn’t do it.
G: Oh, okay.
J: It was a kid. I can’t, Peter something. My son knew him, the kid. He’s the one that shot him.
G: I didn’t realize that.
J: But when the Feds went in there after he died, the Feds knew he had money somewhere. It was all in
the walls.
G: In the house?
J: Yah. They ripped the walls down.
G: I’ve got to ask you about another guy. He’s well-known in the Portuguese Community, and for some
good reasons, some bad reasons. [Did you know]Manny Bello?
J: I knew Manny.
G: And he had a club on Bridge Street? No.
J: No, John Street.
G: John Street. What was the name of the club?
J: Flamingo, I think.
G: Okay.
J: It was right around the corner from Fanny Farmer’s Candy, which was on the corner of John Street,
and you just walk-up John Street, it’s right there. It had a level, you know, street level place, and there
was a downstairs.
G: Okay. Did they have live music there?
J: Yah.
G: Did you play there?
35
�J: No. They had dancers there, sort of strippers, you know. But yah, I got to know him through, I don’t
remember who introduced me to him. And I learned later on, when I was dealing with the North End
guys who knew him.
G: Did they know him in Boston? In the North End?
J: Yah.
G: Because I think he did some business with them. So, I just wonder, what were your impressions of
Manny? He was, I forget how old he would have been when, maybe a little older.
J: I don’t know. He was older than I was of course.
G: Yah, a little older than you.
J: I didn’t have a lot of dealings with him. Mostly here and there, and I’d go to the club once in a while.
Because you know, as a union rep, back then if a band was playing, you had to check them out and
collect dues.
G: You would, right.
J: Yah. And see if they’re union. If they’re union, you got to pay your work dues. Now nobody pays
work dues. They just don’t. Boston stopped collecting work dues before I did when I was still President
of this Local. I was still busting balls collecting work dues. And Boston, Mark said, “[expletive] that.”
You know, “It’s not worth it.”
G: So, you’d go around to the different clubs in Lowell, including Manny Bello’s place.
J: Yah.
G: Finally, let me ask you about one other guy. I’ve met him. He’s a wonderful, I think he’s a wonderful
guy. And that’s Luis Gomes.
J: I never got close to him for whatever reason. I don’t know. I never did much with him. I never had a
lot of dealings with him.
G: Okay.
J: You know when you’re in church you meet a lot of people. And the Feasts, you meet everybody.
Everybody went to the Feasts. So, you’d meet them there, you know, but a more casual kind of thing.
Because you’re up there on the bandstand playing. You don’t have time to schmooze. Most of the time
you’re playing so many [expletive] hours. The guys I brought from college, right, say, “When the
[expletive] is this gig over?” I said, “When I tell you!” We had one trumpet player, Eddie D’Amico, great
player. Great player.
G: I remember Eddie D’Amico.
J: He’s a lead trumpet player. And the first time he did a gig, there was only one bandstand there. And
the old building is behind you. There was no new building then, yet. The old building behind you, and
the bandstand is over there by the trees. And I’m going to go set up. Somebody puts a statue of Saint
Anthony on the lead trumpet’s chair. They didn’t know, it was Saint Anthony. So, he comes up, steps on
the back. He says, “Hey, who’s this guy? I’m playing lead, right?” I said, “Yah.” I said, “Put him on
down on the floor.” Jesus Christ, I said, “Put him on the floor.” “Are you sure you want to do that?”
“Why?” “I don’t know. You touch a saint, who knows?” Well, you know, the gig is long, right. This guy
36
�owned a Hudson car. You know, Hudson, four-door, big four-door, and he had parked that way. Okay.
And the sun comes down this way. He goes back to his car. He comes back. “Son of a bitch! Somebody
broke my [expletive] rear windshield!” “What do you mean, broke it? Nobody is going to smash your
[expletive] windshield.” So, I went up there to look at it. The whole thing was shattered, you know, like
somebody [makes sound]. You couldn’t see through the [expletive] thing. The sun hit it just right. I
said, “Custigo. Pennance, Custigo. You touched Saint Anthony. You’re not supposed to touch him.”
G: That’s great.
J: “What the [expletive]! You know what it cost for a [expletive] windshield?” I said, “I told you, Saint
Anthony. Don’t mess with the saint.” So, he had to have the window replaced. The insurance covered
it, but you know.
G: Hey John, on that note, I don’t want to take more of your time, but thank you. That’s great.
J: I’m glad. I’m going to see Melba at 2:00. You know because she’s busy having her lunch. She’s doing
PT now too.
G: Thanks a lot John. I appreciate it.
Interview ends.
37
�
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UMass Lowell Portuguese American Oral Histories [1985-2018]
Description
An account of the resource
These oral histories with Portuguese immigrants and their descendants in the Greater Lowell area were conducted between 1985-2016. Topics covered include the experience of immigration, working conditions, family life, and more. These oral histories were funded by the Lowell National Historical Park, the American Folklife Center, and UMass Lowell.
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Azorean Americans
Children of immigrants
Cultural assimilation
Mills and mill-work
Portuguese American women
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PDF
Language
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English
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Document
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All items can be found at the Center for Lowell History in Lowell, MA.
Publisher
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UMass Lowell, Center for Lowell History
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In Copyright - Educational Use Permitted: This Item is protected by copyright and/or related rights. You are free to use this Item in any way that is permitted by the copyright and related rights legislation that applies to your use. In addition, no permission is required from the rights-holder(s) for educational uses. For other uses, you need to obtain permission from the rights-holder(s).
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1985-2018
Oral History
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Title
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John Leite Oral History Interview #3
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2023-02-08
Description
An account of the resource
As in two other oral history interviews with Mr. Leite, this Interview includes a great deal of information on Mr. Leite’s career as a musician and some of the well-known composers, conductors, and musicians whom he knew and with whom he performed. But unlike the other interviews, this oral history covers his recollections of the Portuguese “Back Central” neighborhood in Lowell and his childhood, into his early teens, as an altar boy at St. Anthony’s Church. It also includes additional information about his parents, their work in the textile industry, and their home in South Lowell.
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Fitzsimons, Gray
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Mills and mill-work
Portuguese American women
Instrumentation and orchestration (Band)
Musicians
Music teachers
Veterans
Bars (Drinking establishments)
Desegregation
Military bands
Catholic Church--Dioceses
Azorean Americans
Priests
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Lowell (Mass.)
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UMass Lowell, Center for Lowell History
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Leite, John
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Relation
A related resource
<a href="https://umlportuguesearchives.omeka.net/items/show/503">1999 Oral History Interview with John Leite</a><br /><a href="https://umlportuguesearchives.omeka.net/items/show/19">2016 Oral History Interview with John Leite</a>
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MP3
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English
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Audio
Text
Band Hall
Barry's Pastry Shop
Colonial Band
Holy Ghost Park
Portuguese American Center (Lowell, M.A.)
Saint Anthony's Church (Lowell, MA)
Spinney's Garage
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052c954c7395fd962cdbb68b916e7b2e
PDF Text
Text
UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SAAB CENTER FOR PORTUGUESE STUDIES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT
INTERVIEWEE: NORBERTO FELIX
INTERVIEWER: GRAY FITZSIMONS
DATE: 3/21/2023
N=Norberto
G=Gray
G: It’s March 21. I’m at the Tewksbury Starbucks on Main Street with Norberto Felix. And
thank you for agreeing to do the interview. I appreciate it.
N: My pleasure. Thank you.
G: So, I’d like to cover three things.
N: Okay.
G: First of all, a little bit of your family history, your background, your parents’ background, and
your grandparents. And then I’d like to cover your growing up in Back Central. That will be the
second part. I’m really interested in hearing about your experiences in Back Central growing
up, but also your perspective today on the neighborhood.
N: Sure.
G: And finally, what I’d like to talk to you about is your experience in the soccer world,
especially with both the Reds Club, the Blues, but also Lusitanos.
N: Excellent. I’ll do my best.
G: So, tell me a little bit about your parents?
N: My parents? Well, we’re originally from the Island of Graciosa in the Azores. I was born
there. We immigrated here when I was three months old.
G: And what year was that?
N: In 1963. So, I was born in December of sixty-two, and we immigrated in March of sixtythree. As a matter of fact, the nineteenth of March was sixty years we came to the United
States. So, it’s been, my whole life has been here just about.
G: And what village, or what town were you born in?
N: We were from the Village of Funchal, which belong to the main Village of Santa Cruz. But
we were in a smaller village called Funchal. It’s up on the mountain.
1
�G: Okay. Is there a church there, a parish at Funchal?
N: I don’t think there was a church there. They had what they used to call the Imperio, like a
little chapel, but the church was down in Santa Cruz.
G: In Santa Cruz. Okay. And so, did your father and mother have relatives here in the states?
N: Yes, they did. So, my mother had a sister who was born here. My grandparents were
immigrated here to the United States late 1800s I would imagine. And one of my aunts was
born here. She was actually born in Lawrence. Then she went back to Portugal with my
grandparents. The family grew there. And when my aunt got married, she came to the U.S.
with her husband.
G: Oh, okay.
N: And so, she was the sponsor for the whole family to come to the U.S.
G: I see.
N: So, back then she sponsored all her sisters, and one brother, to come to the U. S.
G: Do you know if your family came here via the Azorean Refugee Act?
N: Yes, that’s what facilitated the whole process.
G: So again, was there family here in Lowell? Why did they come to Lowell?
N: First of all, my aunt was here, and second of all, jobs. They had the mill jobs at that time.
G: I see.
N: A lot of people came here because there was work to be in that area.
G: Gotcha. What did your dad do before leaving Graciosa, before he came here?
N: When he was in Graciosa he worked in a store. It wasn’t his business, he worked for an
employer, but he ran a little general store. Him and one of his best friends growing up, they
worked in the store together.
G: Okay. What kind of formal education did your father have?
N: Very little, I think. Just, you know, basic grade school. He could read and write without no
problem, but he was basically, you know, just grade school. That was it.
G: And what about your mother?
N: My mother was illiterate.
G: Oh!
N: My mother never went to school. She just learned how to sign her name basically. My
mother was illiterate.
G: So again, they came here in sixty-three. And what did they do upon arrival? Do you know?
2
�N: My mother worked in a shoe factory.
G: Which one? Do you know?
N: Grace Shoe.
G: Grace Shoe, yah.
N: She worked there until her retirement. She worked there all her life till she retired. My
father had a couple of other jobs in the beginning, but then he settled. He went to Commodore
Foods, which used to be on Lawrence Street. He worked there for years. He retired from
there.
G: Okay. So how old were they when they came to the states?
N: My mother, I believe she was thirty-nine, because it was right after I was born. My father
was like forty-five, forty-six, in that area.
G: Do you know what his first job was in Lowell though?
N: I think he was working in a sneaker factory.
G: Okay.
N: I don’t know the name of the factory. The Portuguese Community was called the factory of
the sneakers. So, I think he worked in the sneaker factory.
G: Was it Simon do you know?
N: I have no idea.
G: Yah, because they did make sneakers there.
N: It could have been.
G: But soon after, I mean a few years, or shortly after, he went to work at Commodore?
N: Yah, Commodore Foods, and then he found his niche there. That’s where he stayed. He
was a machine operator.
G: So again, you were born in?
N: Graciosa in the Azores.
G: No, but what was your birth date?
N: December 16, 1962.
G: Okay. So, you guys would have come over here, and John Kennedy was President.
N: Yup! He was assassinated the following year.
G: Exactly, right. So, what school did you first attend in Lowell?
N: I went to Saint Peter’s.
3
�G: Oh, okay.
N: I went to Saint Peter’s for eight years. Graduated from Saint Peter’s. So, it was a local
school. My aunt, who had been here in the United States, she had a daughter who went to
Saint Peter’s. So, you know, my mother would always lean on the advice of her older sister. So
that’s where I went. I went to Saint Peter’s.
G: I meant to ask, did your grandparents ever come to the states?
N: When they were younger, they were here in the Lawrence area.
G: In the Lawrence area.
N: In Lawrence, but my grandparents on my mother’s side, I never met them. They passed
away before I was born. And on my father’s side they were elderly. My grandmother on my
father’s side was blind. So, as we left to come to the U.S., she became blind. So, I didn’t see
her until I was, the first time I met her I was nine years old. She only remembered me as a baby
because her world stopped. My grandfather on my father’s side, I met him a few times when
we’d go back to visit. He died, he was like eighty-eight, eighty-nine years old when he died. So,
I met him a couple of times when we’d go back on vacation, but they never came to the U.S.
None of the grandparents on my father’s side came to the U.S.
G: But on your mother’s side, they were here.
N: My mother’s side, yah.
G: But they went back though?
N: Yah, they went back.
G: That wasn’t uncommon for people.
N: I guess from what I hear, you know, the family history, my grandfather on my mother’s side
was out in California.
G: Oh, okay.
N: As a matter of fact, when he went back to Portugal, back to the Azores, they’d ask him
where he had been in America, and he used to say California. But they could never, no one
could ever pronounce California, so it was Californa. So, he was known as Tony California
because that’s where he was. And to this day it’s still kind of known as the Californas, you
know.
G: That’s good. Let me ask you, what are your first memories of Lowell?
N: Actually, I grew up on Chapel Street. Right on the corner of Chapel and Elm. I mean we
moved a couple of places before I ever had any recollection, but in that area of Back Central, on
the corner of Chapel and Elm, that’s where, I grew up there playing hockey, street hockey with
my friends, you know. We used to go to the Superior Court House, to the parking lot there. We
used to play on Sundays and Saturdays, when there was no (--) We used to play there. You
know, that was my first recollection of going out, was doing that, playing stuff like that. Playing
4
�baseball in the courtyard on the back side. That was grass. Kicking soccer balls around. And
then, you know, you had the feasts all the time. So, my mother helped a lot at the feast. And
my father, my father was the founder of the marching band in Lowell. My father was the
founder of that band. So, you know, they were always involved in the community and the
feasts. My mother would be at the Holy Ghost Park working in the kitchen for all those feasts.
So, I grew up, through my recollections, going there before feast days and hanging out there on
a Friday night while they were preparing the food. We’d be running around playing, while they
were doing the food.
G: What are your early memories of Saint Anthony’s Church?
N: The feasts. The feasts, going there, you know, for the processions and things like that.
Participate in the processions. We used to get all dressed up and carried the statues, the little
ones obviously, you know, for the kids, and stuff like that.
G: So, you did some of that too?
N: Yup, we did a lot of that stuff.
G: Were your parents’ members of the Holy Ghost Society?
N: Yes.
G: Were they pretty active there?
N: Yah, they were. As I was saying a little while ago, my mother worked at maybe every feast.
My mother was up there in the kitchen working. Every single feast she was there. Saint
Anthony’s Feast, The Lady of Fatima, The Loreto Feast. She’d be there. Whenever there was a
feast day she was up there.
G: Right. Do you remember, you must remember Father John Silva?
N: Yup. The first priest I ever met was Father John Silva. As a matter of fact, he married my
sister and my brother.
G: But he didn’t marry you?
N: No, no, not me. He married my oldest brother, my oldest sister, and my youngest sister.
G: Actually, how many siblings have you got?
N: There’s five of us total. I have two brothers and two sisters.
G: And how many were born here in the states?
N: None. We were all born over there.
G: Oh! So, were you the youngest?
N: I was the youngest.
G: Okay, I see. I thought you had a younger sister.
5
�N: No, no, my sister was born, there’s eleven years between my sister and I.
G: Oh wow.
N: My youngest sister is eleven years, but they all got married. Father John Silva married my
sister Cecilia, my sister Deidamia, and my brother Tony.
G: And so, do you remember Father Eusebio?
N: Yup, Eusebio. Yup, I remember him very well. As a matter of fact, he knew me. He went on
sabbatical for a while, and I ran into him. And he goes, “Oh, you don’t recognize me anymore?”
I and said, “Oh, Father Silva.” So, he knew me and my family very well. As a matter of fact, my
mother had an industrial accident at work, at Grace Shoe, when she was working there. She
burnt her hand. She had to get skin graphs and everything. And Father John Silva would go
with her to Boston.
G: Oh!
N: He would take her to Boston for her to get treatment and go see the doctors there.
G: Is that right? Really?
N: Yah, he would go up there with her like every, when she was getting all the treatments on
her hand and everything, he would take her up there, because he spoke English. And my sisters
were in school. And so, you know, my parents reached out to him. And he said, “I’ll take you.”
So, he was taking them up there.
G: Wow. That’s pretty remarkable. Interesting. So, and you also, you say you knew Dimas.
N: Yes, I know Dimas very well.
G: Because he would have, I think he came to the states from Terceira.
N: Yah, Terceira.
G: In sixty-eight I believe, or sixty-nine.
N: Yup.
G: So, you were a seasoned citizen.
N: Yah, we were already. We’d been here five years. I was just starting school. I was going
into first grade. I was just starting school then.
G: Yah, because is he, he’s a little older than you, right?
N: Yah, he’s about, he’s close to my brother’s age. So, he’s about, I think Maria is a few, Maria
is maybe about four years, five years older than me. Ray is my age. Fatima, I think Fatima is a
year or two older than me.
G: Oh, okay. So, let me ask you about when, I guess your teenage years, were you at Saint
Peter’s then until eighth grade? Is that right?
6
�N: Yup, eighth grade.
G: And then where did you go after Saint Peter’s?
N: Central Catholic in Lawrence.
G: Oh, you went to Central Catholic in Lawrence? Okay.
N: Yah, I went to Central Catholic. I was actually one of the first Portuguese kids around here
from Lowell who went to Central Catholic.
G: Is that right?
N: I remember I went there. I went to Central. It was all boys at the time. So, it wasn’t even
coed. It was all boys back in seventy-seven. September of seventy-seven I started going there.
Central would come and get recruits to go visit the school. So, they came to Saint Peter’s, and
they got all the boys from Saint Peter’s in the eighth grade, we went for a field trip to tour
Central. I liked it. I came home to my parents. I really wanted to try going there. And they
were like, okay, that’s fine. And so, you know, they did the aptitude test and I got into Central.
G: So, you started there in seventy?
N: September of seventy-seven.
G: Seventy-seven, okay.
N: Yah, I graduated in eighty-one.
G: Eighty-one, okay. As a teenager in Back Central, obviously you had friends in the
neighborhood. What was it like as a kid, you know, teenager?
N: It was a safe neighborhood. The neighborhood was clean. A lot of the Portuguese people
took pride in their properties. So, everything was cleaned up. You know, it kind of used to be a
little joke. If you had grass, we’d put tar on it right away, hard top.
G: Yah, right.
N: Because you had to make room for the cars, you know, you had to park the cars.
G: Exactly.
N: But it was safe. You know, we would stay out until, you know, eleven o’clock at night
without any issues. Whether we would be on Chapel Street, or down on Central Street, or
anywhere in the whole neighborhood, you weren’t very far from home. Someone always knew
you. You had an aunt, or relative who lived close by. So, it was a safe neighborhood.
G: Did you ever have any run-ins with the cops, Lowell Police? Because Dimas said there were
times when the cops would come around and say, “Hey, [words muffled-13:46].”
N: I remember, I was young, but I remember there were sometimes when the cops would
show up and start, you know, giving the Portuguese people a hard time. You know, they would
7
�give them a hard time, tell them to get out, especially if they were like hanging out on Central
Street. We used to call it the corner.
G: Yes!
N: Right by the rotary there. You know, they would like, tell you to get out of there and go
home, but I never had any issues with the police personally. But I do remember the cops giving
some people a hard time.
G: Yah, I don’t think he did. He didn’t have a run-in, but he remembered being basically
hassled by the, they were probably Irish cops.
N: Probably.
G: So, what was your house like? It was on the corner of Elm and Chapel, right?
N: Yah, it was a three-family home. I guess the downstairs used to be a variety store, a small
little store. My father converted it into an apartment. So, four families lived there.
G: Did he own the building?
N: Yah, he owned the building. At one point it was all the family who lived there. So, I had two
aunts living in the downstairs apartments. We lived on the second floor. My other aunt lived
on the third floor. So, it was all family. So, you were never locked out of your house because
you could go in. You could go through the basement into, you know, to get into one house, or
go through the upstairs, come down the front hallway. So, it was very, the whole building was
family. So, it was like the main focal point. And when we got together for my family, my aunts
and uncles, everyone would go there and meet there. Like on a Sunday afternoon there was,
the focal point was there.
G: Nice. So, you said there was a variety store there at one time.
N: Yah, I don’t remember it. I think when my father bought the place it wasn’t even open
anymore.
G: Oh, okay.
N: I think they just turned around, you know, he said we’re going to make this an apartment.
He made a little three-room apartment down there. So, it was kind of nice.
G: Did your dad hire people to do it, or did?
N: No, he did it himself.
G: Did he?
N: Yah, my father was jack of all trades. He would jump in and do a lot. I learned a lot from
watching him.
G: So, he did carpentry and plumbing?
N: Yah, he did plumbing, carpentry.
8
�G: Electrical?
N: He would hook up. Sometimes not the greatest electrical work, but.
G: He did it.
N: Yah, he did hook up electrical. He would hook up plumbing. I mean I remember going with
my father many times to the lumber yard. You know, we’d go to Friend Lumber in Lowell, or
Wilmington Supply up here in Wilmington, to get paneling, you know, and lumber. We would
tie it on the top of the car and strap it down. And I would go to speak for him.
G: Yes.
N: He’d say, tell him I want this, this. Okay, I’d tell him what he wanted. They’d bring it out.
He’d throw it on the car.
G: Did your father speak English?
N: No really. My father had a hearing problem.
G: Oh, okay.
N: So, it was difficult for him to hear. And he found English difficult, because, just because of
the dialect here in New England. So, it was difficult for him. He could read it, and pretty much
understand what was being said, but to speak it, it was hard for him. So, that’s why I always
had to go with him all the time to interpret.
G: I see. Interesting. And of course, Portuguese was always spoken in your home.
N: Yes.
G: Did you ever speak some English in your home to your siblings?
N: Yah, I’d talk to my sister. Sometimes we’d be at the table talking, and my father would say,
“Hey, Portuguese.” So, we would have to stop. He would get mad. But sometimes it was force
of habit. Because, you know, growing up Portuguese and going to school, it was like I had to be
English or American, you know, in school. And then once that got done, I had to switch back
over to Portuguese.
G: Interesting. It’s a dual identity.
N: Yah, it’s like you had to change a chip. It was a fun time to grow up. It was good. I don’t
regret any of it, but it was that type of scenario where you had to think one way, you know, and
then you got back, and then, you like, now you got to be this way.
G: When did you finally leave Back Central?
N: 1989. I bought a townhouse in Tewksbury, and I moved there. And I lived in North
Tewksbury for like twenty-six years. And then recently, about six years ago, I moved to South
Tewksbury. So, I’m on this side of Tewksbury now.
G: Yah, you’re on Kehoe.
9
�N: Yah.
G: Okay. So, what did you do after high school?
N: After high school I did a bunch of different things. I got a job at a bank. I worked in a bank
for a little while. Then I went to work, like every other Portuguese person did around here, I
went to work for Wang Labs.
G: Did you work at Wang?
N: Yup, I worked at Wang Labs for a short stint, about two years.
G: What did you do there?
N: I was a material handler.
G: Okay.
N: And I worked there for a couple of years after high school. I did some college.
G: Where was that?
N: I went to Middlesex.
G: In Lowell, or in Bedford?
N: Lowell. Actually, at that time it was in Bedford. I was at Middlesex in Bedford. And then I
did a couple of, you know, different jobs. After high school I was in banking. And then I left
there, and I got a job with Wang, like I said. And then at Wang I was offered a position working
for an airline. So, I took a chance. And thirty-seven years later I’m still in the aviation industry.
G: No kidding. What’s the firm?
N: I work for a company called Aero Mag.
G: What do they do?
N: We’re an aircraft de-icing company. So, we basically, we de-ice airplanes. You know, take
the snow and ice off the airplane. But I started working actually for an airline first. I worked for
a company called New York Air.
G: New York Air, yah.
N: And then through mergers, we merged with Continental Airlines.
G: Oh yah, of course.
N: And then went through that whole, like twenty something years with Continental. And then
they just merged with United Airlines back in 2010. Then I was working for United. And I had a
pretty good job with United. I was the trainer.
G: Were you at Logan?
10
�N: Yah, at Logan. My whole career has been at Logan. So, I was doing training at Logan here.
And then I was offered a position with this company that I am with now. Aero Mag offered me
a General Manager’s position. So, I retired from the airline, and two weeks later I was back to
work again.
G: And where are they located?
N: At Logan. We’re headquartered in Montreal.
G: Okay. Canadian company.
N: Canadian company. It’s worldwide. We’re in seventeen different airports. So, we’re in the
U.S., the UK, and Canada.
G: Okay. Getting back, to Back Central, I want to ask you a little bit about some of the clubs
there before we talk about soccer.
N: Sure.
G: What’s your earliest experience say, with The Portuguese American Civic League, the club
on Central Street?
N: Not much. I grew up with the other one.
G: The Blues?
N: The Blues Club.
G: The Portuguese American Center?
N: The Portuguese American Center, yah.
G: Were your parents’ members of that club?
N: Yah, my father was actually a member of both clubs, but he hung out more at the Blues
Club. And that’s where I hung out there more than I did at the Reds. I didn’t feel the Reds,
back then the Reds were not as popular.
G: Is that right? Really?
N: Yah, as the Blues. The Blues had more of a, more of a foundation I guess, but they both had
their strengths and weaknesses. Like I felt more comfortable going to the Blues Club, and that’s
where I hung out, and that’s where I grew up, was there.
G: So, one thing I was wondering as far as the difference between the clubs, was there any
difference in the membership in terms of like Madeirans were at the Reds Club, as opposed to
the Blues Club?
N: Yah, I think so. A little bit. I believe there were more Madeirans at the Reds Club, and the
Blues Club was more like people from Graciosa, Terceira, you know, more of the Central Islands
were going there.
11
�G: Right.
N: And I don’t think that was by design. I think it’s just the way it happened, you know.
G: Exactly right. Growing up Portuguese, did you see any differences culturally, between say,
Madeirans and Azoreans?
N: No, not really. I mean, yes, the dialect is obviously different, you know, but I mean that’s
about it. Because I had friends of mine who were from Madeira, and never had any issues. You
know, I never noticed anything different. We were all kind of, we all thought the same, you
know, it’s just everyone had their own little dialect when they spoke.
G: Right. What about those from mainland Portugal? Did you see any differences there with
those folks?
N: No, not really. I mean they were just like, you know, to say there was a cultural difference,
they celebrated different things than we did. Like Azoreans Communities are very big into the
Holy Ghosts, not so much in the mainland. You know, so I mean they participated here,
because it’s part of the culture where they were, but they didn’t like, to them it wasn’t as big a
deal as it is in the Azores.
G: Sure. The other thing too, you know, Madeirans didn’t celebrate the Holy Ghost to any
great extent, actually until later.
N: They actually, here locally, was the Feast of Loreto. Yah, on Labor Day Weekend.
G: So that was more Madeiran sort of thing?
N: Yah.
G: But you did them all, right?
N: Yah, yah, because we’re here.
G: So, did most people too.
N: Yah, we’re here. So, there’s nothing else to do. So, that’s what we did, you know.
G: Exactly right. Were there any people at say the Blues Clubs that stand out to you as kind of
notable characters, or notable men or women that you recall?
N: Yah, I mean there was a lot of people. I remember, like when I was growing up, some of the
presidents that were there. I mean there was a gentleman, I’m sure you heard his name, Eddie
Santos.
G: Yes.
N: Eddie Santos, I guess, was a big contributor towards the club being what it, you know,
forming the club. You know, he was one of the (--) I don’t know if he was a founder?
G: I think he might have been one of the founders.
12
�N: But he was one of the guys who was there. I remember Eddie being around because he
used to work for the Post Office. So, I remember him being involved in the community and
stuff like that. Eddie, and there was also Joe Cordeiro.
G: Yes, Joe.
N: He was president of the club.
G: Coach.
N: Coach of the teams. Larry Astacio was a guy, another one.
G: I’m sorry. What was his name?
N: Larry Astacio.
G: Okay, Astacio.
N: He was always, I remember him being involved with the club. Yah, so those were the guys.
When I was growing up those are the ones I remember. I’m sure there were other people
before me, but I don’t remember too much. I just remember Eddie, because he used to, Mr.
Santos used to hang out at the club. You know, go down there to be with some friends and
stuff like that.
G: Just a couple of things about the marching band. I have known, I don’t know if you know
John Leite, who is a band leader and he was with the (--) His father was one of the, they kind of
reformed the Holy Ghost Band.
N: Okay.
G: This was back in the forties. So, it was the Portuguese Colonial Band.
N: Colonial Band, yah. My father played for them.
G: Did he?
N: Yah, my father played for them.
G: What instrument did he play?
N: He played the tuba and the trombone.
G: Okay.
N: Yah, I don’t remember my father playing for them, because I was obviously young, but I
remember my father making the first initials steps to form a Portuguese Band, because I think
the Colonial Band went under.
G: They kind of went defunct, yes.
N: Yah, they went defunct. And I believe my father wanted to really have a Portuguese Band.
So, he got a hold of a few other people who he knew, who were musicians back in Portugal, in
13
�the Azores, and they started talking about forming a band here. And so, I remember my father
going with, I’m sure you’ve heard of Manny Correira, and Sally Correira.
G: Yes.
N: I remember going to their house as a kid, because my mother and father, you know, and I’d
tag along, because I was the youngest one. So, I had to go with them. And sitting down and
meeting with him to talk about forming a band and trying to find a place for rehearsals. And I
think the first place they got for rehearsals was the Holy Ghost Park.
G: Yes.
N: That’s where they did their rehearsals until something went awry and they didn’t want them
there anymore. And then they left there and went down to the Reds Club.
G: Yes, was it the Reds Club?
N: It was the Reds Club. They were there for years. And then they moved to the Blues Club.
And then that’s when they became incorporated with the club. Because at first, they were in
the Blues Club, but they were their own separate entity. And then I forget exactly when it
happened, but they ended up becoming merged with the club, as part of the club.
G: Well, you know it’s interesting, because the Portuguese Colonial Band originally owned the
building where the Blues Club is.
N: Yes, exactly. As a matter of fact, because I was President of the Portuguese Club, the Blues
Club.
G: Oh, I didn’t know that.
N: Yah, I was. I was twenty-two years old. I became president of the club. And the charter
that we had on the wall said Colonial Band.
G: Did it? Really? Okay.
N: I became president of the Portuguese Club in 1986, and 1987. Two years in a row I was
president.
G: Twenty-two years old.
N: Yah, twenty-two years old I was elected president.
G: That’s pretty remarkable.
N: Yah, back then I was pretty crazy. I didn’t know what I was doing back then, but I survived it.
G: So, the Colonial Band was actually reformed I think in the forties. And one of the founders
of the later edition was Belarmino Leite. And he had a son, John Leite, who’s a very, very
talented horn player. I mean really talented, and he’s a professional musician. And he was
active, he’s a generation before us. Maybe two before you, but he just turned ninety. He’s still
14
�alive. So, you’re right. I mean that band that reformed in the forties was active for about
twenty years, and then you know.
N: Yah, it kind of fizzled out.
G: Yah, fizzled out.
N: But I believe the charter for, was the Pioneer Club. And it was the Pioneer Club and Colonial
Band that kind of merged their charter to form, to keep that building.
G: That’s right. So, was your father then, for a while was he actually the head of the group?
N: He wasn’t the band leader. He was one of the founders. They hired Mr. Gomes.
G: Luis Gomes.
N: Luis Gomes, yah, who used to be a teacher at the high school. He was the Maestro of the
Band. So, my father and him, my father went out, you know, got a hold of him, brought him in.
G: Interesting. Your father did the right thing.
N: Yah, to be the Maestro.
G: He’s a wonderful guy.
H: And Mr. Gomes came back. He actually did two different stints of Maestro of the Band. And
my father was there till, just before he couldn’t play anymore. As a matter of fact, my father,
when he couldn’t march anymore, he’d march with them and not play. And then when they
would go up to Holy Ghost Park to play their concerts there, he would sit down and play with
them, because he could sit and do it.
G: And he was always a tuba player, right?
H: Yah, tuba, or the trombone.
G: Trombone, okay.
N: Yah, that’s what he did. He kept it up until he was incapable of doing it anymore. Then he
just stopped.
G: What year did your parents die by the way?
N: My parents died in 2010.
G: Both of them in 2010?
N: Yah, both of them. My mother died in August, and my father died in December.
G: Okay, and they were in their eighties, is that right?
N: My father was ninety-two, and my mother was like eighty-eight.
G: Wow. You’ve got good genes. Let me talk to you a little bit about soccer now. When did
you first get into soccer?
15
�N: Well, I remember as a kid my brothers played soccer. One of my older brothers was the
goalkeeper for the Blues, the Blue Lusitanos. And, you know, I always grew up idolizing them
playing. I tried to play. I don’t have the talent. I tried to play for a little while. Didn’t have the
talent that they did. So, I couldn’t play. But I got involved with the club with soccer. In 1984 I
was actually asked to become one of the directors of the club. Not the club, of the soccer
team.
G: Of the soccer team.
N: It involved basically running the soccer team. You know, we had to go off, find coaches,
find players, apply for permits for fields to play, and things like that. So, you know, you were
basically running the day-to-day operation of the club, of the team. And I did that in 1984. And
that’s when, a couple of years before that, the Blues had gone into LASA. I think they had been
in LASA already, maybe two or three years before that. So, in 1984, I became the manager of
the Lusitanos, which was a Second Division Team. And we went out, and we got a coach, and
we got players.
G: So, what year? That was eighty-six?
N: Eighty-four.
G: Eighty-four you became the manager?
N: Yah, the manager of the soccer team.
G: Of the soccer, of Lusitanos.
N: Of the Lusitanos, yah.
G: Yes, okay.
N: So, we went out. We got a bunch of young kids, you know, all kids like my age.
G: So, did you recruit essentially?
N: Yah, we recruited. We recruited players. We recruited a coach. The coach was a gentleman
out of Lawrence. His name was Manuel Vascos.
G: Vascos.
N: Yah, from Lawrence. As a matter of fact, he’s Joe Cordeiro’s brother-in-law.
G: Oh.
N: So, he came to Lowell. He coached. And fortunately, things went well that year and we
won the Second Division. So, by winning the Second Division you automatically advance to First
Division.
G: Bumped up to first.
N: Bumped up to first. At that point I didn’t stay on.
16
�G: Okay.
N: Because the president of the club at that time, the one who asked me to be the manager
was a gentleman called Umberto, I can’t think of his last name.
G: It will come to you.
N: Correira. Umberto Correira.
G: Correira?
N: Yah, Umberto Correira.
G: Was he a Lowell guy?
N: Well, he passed away.
G: But was he from Lowell?
N: Yah, he was from Lowell. He’s from my Island, from Graciosa too, and he lived here in
Lowell.
G: Okay.
N: So, he was the president of the club. And he asked me to be the manager. I said, “sure!” I
had nothing else to do. So, I took it. You know, he kept a strict eye on me all the way through.
G: Well, you were really quite young.
N: Yah, exactly. So, there were a lot of guys thought I was going to be like (--) Because it was
mostly older people who were always like in their thirties and forties, would take over. And
here I was, I think I was just barely nineteen. And I was like, yah, I can do this. And I did it.
And, you know, like I said, we were fortunate, and we won the Second Division. I might have
actually been in my twenties at the end. But anyway, we won. We won the Second Division.
We got bumped up to first. At that point, you know, Umberto said, you know, we need
someone with more experience because it’s First Division. No problem.
G: I see, okay.
N: You know, I backed away, and they got somebody else. And they played. And he finished
his term as president, and that was his second term. So, the By Laws only said you could run for
two years in a row. So, this is eighty-five, he’s done. So, eighty-six starts a new year. We’re
having the general election at the club. And nobody wanted to run for president. Big going on
back and forth.
G: Do you know why?
N: Just nobody wanted to do it.
G: Nobody wanted to take the time to do it.
17
�N: Exactly. So, there was one gentleman who stood up and he said he would do it, but he said,
if I do it I’m going to disband the soccer team, because he was against it. He was an old timer. I
think he was president of the club years before. Then he left. I think his name was John Silva.
And old, older gentleman. And he was like, if I do it, I will disband soccer. Of course, you know,
back then that’s what kept the community together. So, the guys were all up in arms. No, no,
no. And my friends all start saying, take it! Take it! Take it! I’m like, I’m not taking it. Come
on, take it, take it. So, I ended up, one nominates me. Second one, yah, I second it, and blah,
blah, blah. Before you know it.
G: Your president.
N: I’m president of the club. You know, I came home. My parents, God bless them. You know,
they were like, what did you do? I’m like, I don’t even know what I did. My brother, my oldest
brother came home the next morning, walked into my mother’s house. He looked at me and
he goes, “You’re a jerk.”
G: What year was that?
N: This was in 1980, well the end of eighty-five. So, I took over in eighty-six.
G: Eighty-six.
N: Yah, so it was like December of eighty-five when they had the elections. You know, and
then you started in January of eighty-six.
G: And that was a two-year term?
N: No, it was a one-year term. It was only a one-year term. So, I just remember looking, and
I’m like yah. I don’t even know why I did what I did, you know.
G: So, what was your role as president? What sort of things (--)
N: We ran the club day to day. We took care of the bar section, you know. So, we made sure
we had the bar. We took care of the members.
G: Did you also have to do fundraising?
N: Yes and no. We kind of had a little, for entertainment purposes only, those poker machines,
like they had at the club.
G: Oh, so that actually bank rolled.
N: That bank rolled a lot. Bank rolled quite a bit. Yah, so they had those there.
G: Was that on the QT?
N: Yah, that was on the QT. So, that’s what kept the place going, you know, because the club
cannot sustain itself. We never really did fundraising because we had that revenue source right
there. So that’s what kept the place going. But that was in eighty-six I became president. Like I
said, then you know, we went ahead, and we would take care of the community too. Like we
did, we’d rent the hall out to anyone who wanted it. We’d open up the hall for events, like
18
�carnival season. We’d have the hall opened up for free for people to come in. We’d have food
there for them to eat. We did an outing for the members. Actually, we took them to an
amusement park. You know, took all the members for free, completely free. Took them out to
the amusement park. So, we did stuff like that with the members and their families too.
G: So as President of the Blues Club, then you really weren’t that involved with soccer at that
point, right?
N: Oh yah, I was, very much.
G: You still were.
N: Because the reason why I took over was because we didn’t want to lose the soccer team.
So, back in that year, which was eighty-six, we made a conscious decision as the Board of
Directors, again, a bunch of young kids, all in their early twenties. You know, I kind of picked, I
had my older brother to be the manager of the club.
G: I was going to ask you who the manager was.
N: So, the manager of the club was my older brother. He ran the bar side, the club side. The
manager of the soccer team was my other brother. So, I was like, you guys, I’m not going in this
alone. So, he managed the soccer team. I was the president of the organization. You know,
each one had their roles.
G: Which brother was managing with you?
N: So, my brother Roy managed the soccer team. My brother Tony managed the club. And I
had my brother-in-law was with me, part of the Board of Directors, and a few other friends that
we had. We hung out together. We were like a bunch of young people, and we went ahead.
And we made a conscious decision to try to win the whole shebang. You know, we’re going to
try to be the tops, the best in the league this year. And we did. Fortunately, enough, we won.
G: Yah, incredible.
N: Yah, we won. That was the first year the Lusitanos won the Division, and then they one with
the [ASAVA]. A tournament within the season called the Cup Tournament. So, we won the
Cup, and we won the league championship.
G: Did you guys expect to win, or was it a surprise to a lot of you guys?
N: We didn’t expect to win. We expected to be competitive. But we had a team that was just
incredible.
G: Who were the remarkable players that you remember on that team?
N: Yah, we had this English kid from England. His name was Steven Clark. He was
unbelievable, the goal score forward. We had a mid-fielder. His name was Leo Figueiredo. He
actually lives in Wilmington. Leo was a super talented player.
G: Mid-fielder?
19
�N: Mid-fielder. Another mid-fielder, Lucio Santos from Taunton. He was up here with us.
G: From Taunton?
N: Yah, he was up here with us.
G: I was going to ask you how you recruited players?
N: Oh we, because we knew like you know, because the league being in LASA, you know the
Lusitanos were already playing in LASA. So you know, when we go to these games, you
obviously see who was (--) And then when it was our turn to, we went and recruited them.
Hey, you want to come play for us. You want to come play for us, you know. The players were
given a stipend.
G: I was going to ask you, were they given a stipend?
N: Yah, they were given a stipend.
G: How much? Do you remember roughly?
N: It depends. Some players, I mean for that time it’s going to sound like a lot of money, but I
had a couple of players making $300.00 a week.
G: Okay. Whoa, a week?
N: A week.
G: That’s very good.
N: A week, every game, but that included them coming to practice twice a week. Two
practices, twice a week, and then game time.
G: And you guys played on Saturdays or Sundays?
N: Saturdays and Sundays.
G: Both days.
N: Yah, both days, Saturday and Sundays.
G: Okay. And how many games in a season did you guys play?
N: It was roughly like twenty something games.
G: Twenty something?
N: Yah, close to thirty games, because they divided the season in half. There was like twelve or
fourteen teams. And they do play the first half of the season, and the second half of the
season. It was a home and away series. So, you know, first half you’re playing away. Next
game, against the same team, we play at home.
G: Gotcha.
N: It ended up being like, the season would go from like April to November.
20
�G: April to November was the season.
N: And they’d be a break in the summer. They’d have a little bit of a break.
G: I see.
N: But it basically started in April and went all the way till November, early November.
G: Okay. Did any of the players that you know go into the professional soccer?
N: A couple of guys that we had on the Blues team, they actually went into the North MLS.
Francis Okaroh went to the MLS. I think he played for the Revolution.
G: Oh, did he?
N: Leo Figueiredo was a professional player.
G: Oh, he was.
N: He was. He played professional at different places, but at that time soccer wasn’t getting as
big as it is now. So, it was hard to form. So, Leo played a couple of different places, but indoor.
Professional was indoor that he played. Yah, so a few of them did go up and become (--).
G: So, you know, as far as you know, paying a stipend, I mean for the club, I mean that’s
$300.00 a week. I don’t know how many players, but that’s not easy money. So, how did you
guys raise money to pay their (--)
N: Entertainment purposes only.
G: Anyway, that’s a commitment.
N: Yah, it was a commitment. And we took care of the players. I mean we got sponsors for
uniforms.
G: Were they local sponsors?
N: Yah. We had, my first year there we had First Bank. You know First Bank, Frank Carvalho?
G: Yes.
N: Was the president.
G: Frank Carvalho.
N: Frank was the manager of the bank. So, I approached Frank. Frank donated the uniforms to
the Blues. We also used to have, when I was in, back in eighty-four, the Second Division, the
Martin’s Fish Market?
G: Yes!
N: They sponsored our uniforms. So, we always had, we had sponsors all the time. You know,
we’d get a sponsor to sponsor the uniforms, sweatsuits, things like that. And then our
commitment to the team was not only paying the players, but we would feed them. We
21
�bought food. We had food. After every practice we had food. We had a big meal after the
games, with transportation, because we would get the buses to go down to, you know, Fall
River, New Bedford, Rhode Island, to play the games.
G: How far away did you guys travel to play?
N: Rhode Island was the furthest we went to.
G: Farthest.
N: We used to go to East Providence, Warwick, in that area.
G: What about Western Mass? Did you play up there?
N: Ludlow came in later into LASA. When they came in, I was already gone.
G: Oh, okay.
N: But we never went that far west. I think they went later on.
G: So, it was basically Eastern Mass and Rhode Island.
N: It was Eastern Mass, Southeastern Mass, yah.
G: Okay. I was going to ask you about the Reds Club. Do they continue fielding the soccer
team?
N: They did. The Reds were competitive too. I think the Lusitanos won four years in a row, and
then the Reds one a year or two after.
G: Did they?
N: Yah.
G: They did.
N: They also, they won some First Division Championships. The Reds were very competitive.
As a matter of fact, the second year that I was president, which was eighty-seven, we won the
championship against the Reds, because we were tied neck and neck the whole season.
G: No kidding.
N: And on the last day of the season, we beat the Reds, and that’s how we won the
championship.
G: Was that played at (--)
N: Cawley Stadium.
G: Cawley Stadium.
N: Yah, played at Cawley Stadium.
G: Was there a good crowd there?
22
�N: Oh yah, we used to get some good crowds. Very good crowds.
G: Was that your home field, Cawley?
N: No, we used to play at the Vocational. Greater Lowell Voke.
G: Okay.
N: We tried to get the Cawley Stadium, but it was always the politics with the city.
G: Was it bad?
N: It was bad. They wouldn’t give it to us. They’d say you’re ripping up the field. You know, so
we would go play after Pop Warner was playing there, and we’d say, look at the field? It’s not
us, you know. But there was always, it was always a struggle to get them to give us that field to
play.
G: I see.
N: So, we just leased the Greater Lowell Votech for our practices, and we played there. So, we
did a lot of stuff up there.
G: But you did play a few at Cawley Stadium.
N: Yah we did. Occasionally we would get Cawley Stadium. I remember at one point I went
down to the Parks and Recreation Department. And I was down there, and I was just like,
listen, you know, we’re representing Lowell. You know, even though we’re Portuguese, but
we’re representing Lowell. They don’t talk about it’s the Portuguese Team for Lowell. They say
it’s the Lowell Team.
G: Exactly.
N: You know, so why can’t we play there? They finally broke down and they gave us a series of
dates that we could play there, but it took a lot of banging on that door and lobbying. It really
took a lot. It took a lot because it was difficult to get them to give us the stadium.
G: And you were saying soccer wasn’t quite as popular at that point too.
N: No, not then. As a matter of fact, it was the only way to get a lot of the old timers, you
know, the guys would like to see soccer, they’d follow the teams, because they’d go there and
watch. It was entertainment on a Saturday or a Sunday. As the leagues locally started IL and
with the addition of cable, when they started transmitting the games from Portugal on Cable
TV, guys would stay home to watch their teams. So, it’s like, why go here and watch this when I
can stay home and watch the pros. And that’s when eventually it started to die down.
G: Yah, I was going to ask. So, what happened to this excellent soccer in Lowell?
N: I think it just wore out its course. LASA went defunct.
G: When did LASA go defunct? Do you know roughly?
N: Probably early nineties?
23
�G: Early nineties?
N: Early to mid-nineties.
G: I would have thought later.
N: Early to mid, ah, yah, no, about mid to late nineties. Sorry, not the early nineties. Mid to
late nineties.
G: Okay.
N: They just couldn’t compete. And part of the reason, believe it or not, was the teams from
the north. The teams from Lowell, Lawrence, Cambridge, who were in our league, because we
were dominating. And what would happen was the teams from the south, from Southeastern
Massachusetts, didn’t want to come up here to compete, because they’re like, we’re going to
lose. So why bother going up there.
G: Were you guys beating those teams down there pretty bad?
N: Oh yah. I’m not talking like, you know, major wipeout, but we were dominate them. We
would just win, win, win, win, you know, If we lost a game it was like, ooh! It was a big scandal
when we’d lose the game. But we were, the teams in the northern area dominated. As a
matter of fact, that was the thing that the north did away with LASA. You know because they
broke up LASA.
G: And then what happened to the soccer team at the Blues and the Reds Club? Did they just
(--)
N: They just stopped doing them. I mean they still do like, they started doing after that like the
over thirties, the over forties, you know, the recreational.
G: Almost like pickup.
N: Yah, recreational. They’d get into leagues. They’d get into over thirty leagues, over forty
leagues. And a bunch of guys get together, you know, in the morning. They’d meet at the club.
Go the field, play a game.
G: Have a few beers.
N: Yah, after the games, and stuff like that. That’s what it became.
G: Okay.
N: That’s what it ended up becoming then. Nothing organized like it was back in the eighties.
The eighties were very organized.
G: It was like semi-pro.
N: Exactly.
G: I’ll finish this up about the soccer. Do you remember any Brazilian players that played for
you?
24
�N: Yup, there was a lot of Brazilian players that played in Lowell. Some played for us. Under
my time there Leo Figueiredo was from Brazil. It was actually funny. Everyone thought he was
Brazilian, but he was born in the Azores.
G: Oh, okay.
N: But raised in Brazil. But he spoke with a Brazilian dialect. But I won’t call him Brazilian now.
There was another one, Manny Barboza.
G: Yes.
N: Very good soccer player, but he passed away a few years ago. Manny went through highs
and lows with his life. He was a very good player. Then he got involved with alcohol. And then,
you know, he basically, he fell off the wagon. He got back on the wagon. As a matter of fact,
my second year as president we brought him back into the team, because he was like I want to
try again. We brought him back in, and he was a very good player for us.
G: Interesting.
N: He actually continued playing for the Lusitanos for a couple of years after that. But he went
through some highs and lows of his life, but a very, very talented player.
G: The Barboza name is a long-time Portuguese name in Lowell. Does his family go back you
know?
N: I don’t know where his family is from, but I know that he has a son and his wife I think up in
the New Hampshire area.
G: Oh, is that right?
N: Yah, I think they’re in the New Hampshire area.
G: Okay.
N: But there was also Decio Brito. Brito, he was Coach of the Lusitanos for a long time. He was
Brazilian.
G: How do you spell his first name?
N: D E C I O.
G: D E C I O, Decio.
N: The father actually played for the Brazilian National Team back in Brazil. And I believe, if I’m
not mistaken, I think he played with Pele.
G: Did he really?
N: He actually played with Pele a couple of games. He moved here, and he got very integrated
into the Portuguese Community. And he was the Coach of the Lusitanos for a long time. His
son grew up playing. Decio, Jr., right, he played for the Lusitanos for lots of years.
25
�G: Did he really?
N: As a matter of fact, he’s known as Joe Brito. They call him Joe, but his real name is Decio.
He played for the Lusitanos for lots and lots of year.
G: This is great stuff. I got to tell you there should be something written about this, certainly
the Lusitanos.
N: Oh, believe me there should be.
G: You should write it.
N: Probably, yah. But I remember, I think it was eighty-four, it was eighty-four. In eighty-four,
when we won the Second Division Championship, at our banquet we celebrated the Lusitanos’
fifteen-year anniversary.
G: Did you?
N: Yah, they were fifteen years old at that time.
G: Thanks to you, you gave me a bunch of scanned photographs from the Blues, the Lusitanos.
I want to get back to you at some point, because we might want to actually include those in the
Portuguese Archive. But I wonder, I think you said you probably had more photographs.
N: I’d have to look. To be honest with you I don’t have that many anymore. Through course of
time maybe I’d dig up (--)
G: Do you think there could be some at the Blues Club possibly?
N: There probably is. I’m sure there is. We used to have the teams, all the teams’ pictures up
there. I don’t know what they did with them. They archived them. I don’t know whether they
threw them away, but there was a lot. We had a lot of different, all the trophies that used to
be up there. I don’t even know what they did with all those trophies.
G: Okay. For the Portuguese Club at Lawrence, we worked with them. We have a lot of the
material now online, including some of the soccer photos, which are quite good. So, it would
be great to have (--)
N: I think I’ve got at home, I have a picture of the eighty-six. Actually, I have a picture of the
eighty-four, the eighty-six, and the eighty-seven team, the teams that I was involved with. I’ve
got the pictures of those three teams. I can try to find them, scan them, and send them over to
you.
G: Yah, okay. I appreciate that. Great.
N: Yah, definitely.
G: Norberto, let me finish. I’ve got a small grant to do a study of the Back Central
Neighborhood, looking at it over time, but including the current condition and what people
perceive of the neighborhood. You left the neighborhood in the late eighties you said, right?
26
�N: But my parents lived there until they died.
G: Yes.
N: So, I would go there all the time.
G: Oh, okay.
N: So, up until, you know, the mid 2000s. You know, 2010, eleven. My parents died in 2010.
My sister lived there, like till 2012 or thirteen. So, I was always still going there quite often.
G: So, let me ask you. This is more of an abstract social question, but what do you see as kind
of the major changes that have occurred in like the last twenty years in the Back Central
Neighborhood?
N: The kids that I grew up with there, we all moved out. We moved out.
G: Why move out?
N: I think we just, we wanted something different, you know. I’ll be honest with you, like I
grew up in Lowell, Back Central, and I had friends from Tewksbury who went to Saint Peter’s
with me. And we would come to their house in the summertime, and it was like, why can’t I
have this? Because you had land. You had greens. You had grass. You know, it wasn’t a triple
decker.
G: Yah, the houses are really close together.
N: Exactly. But of the flip side of that coin, there’s nothing wrong growing up the way we did,
because we had fun. We made things happen with what we had.
G: There’s something about an urban lifestyle which is very invigorating, yah.
N: Exactly. We would play kickball in the street, and the cars were coming, get out of the way.
You know, then go back into the street and play kickball.
G: Right, exactly.
N: So, but I think my generation moved out, you know, in search of something different,
whatever that might have been for each individual, you know. They moved out. And I just
think as the older generation, like my parents’ generation, started passing away, the kids didn’t
want to take care of the property. We’re guilty of it. We kept my parents’ house for like ten
years after they passed away.
G: Oh, did you really?
N: Yah, until we finally said, you know what?
G: Yah, you didn’t want to be a landlord.
N: No, it’s deteriorating, because we can’t spend the time to fix it up. The people that are
there, you know, they don’t take care of it the way we did when we were there. So, let’s just
get rid of it. It’s time to move on.
27
�G: So, as far as the people that have come in, in more recent years, from your perspective,
what are their backgrounds? I mean who are the major people in the neighborhood today?
N: Today? There’s a lot of Southeast Asians there. I think there’s a lot of Brazilians there now
too. I just think that, you know, the difference that I see is that there was pride in the
Portuguese Community in their property, and I don’t see that as much now anymore. And I
think that’s what led to the, I don’t want to say downfall, but the decline I guess is a better
word. The decline in the neighborhood, it would be that the pride that was there before is not
there now.
G: I wonder too, if there are more renters in the neighborhood, say now, than there was say,
thirty years ago?
N: I would say so. I would definitely say so, because most of the people who would buy those
houses, fix them up and live there, but I definitely think that there are probably more renters
now than anything else.
G: Sure, okay. Let me ask you, this is sort of a personal question that would relate to your
church affiliation. Do you still attend Saint Anthony’s Church?
N: No, I sometimes go to Saint Anthony’s, not as often as I should. But I was never really
registered at Saint Anthony’s. Because when I moved to Tewksbury, I would go to Saint
Anthony’s. At that time, I was registered, but I think I’ve fallen off the books. It’s been a while.
Sometimes I go to Saint Williams here, because it’s local, it’s closer, but I mean I still consider
Saint Anthony’s as my church, believe it or not. Even though I don’t go there, I still consider
that’s my church.
G: But you are still going there for special events.
N: Yah, if there’s a feast there, or something, I’ll go there.
G: You know, I’ve interviewed Joe Mendonca. We talked a little bit about the Holy Ghost
Society. And he talked about the changes too, and the fact, this is what he said, most of the
members now are life members, which means they don’t have to pay dues. So, it’s struggling
financially. But he said too, that he felt similarly, the younger generation was not filling the
ranks.
N: Yah, I remember as a kid, I know you’ve heard of her name, Mrs. Gladys Picanso, Leno
Picanso, Joe Camara, his wife.
G: Patricia.
N: Patricia Camara, all these people. When I was a child, these were the mainstays of the
community. Sally Correira and Manny Correira. I can’t think of his name now. I can see his
picture. Joe Mendonca. Mr. Mendonca.
G: Oh yes, of course.
28
�N: He’s still alive. He’s from Madeira. Him and his wife, they were involved with the Holy
Ghost Park. These were all those people who, they were the mainstay of the community. And
as, you know, they stopped getting involved, not many younger people got involved.
G: Yah, their kids, that younger generation, didn’t get involved.
N: Now there is, at the Holy Ghost, I think there is younger people in there now. I don’t even
know who the president is. I think it’s a woman if I’m not mistaken.
G: Yes, it’s Elizabeth Candida.
N: Elizabeth, [unclear 55:25]. So, I mean kudos to her because she wants to jump in there and
take over. It’s a lot of responsibility. It’s a lot of work. No good deed goes unpunished, right?
Because you hear everything, that you’re in it for personal reasons and stuff like that. But I
don’t believe that because I know what it’s like. Because I was involved too, you know, with the
clubs. Kudos to them for getting involved. Personally speaking, for myself, I’m at a point in my
life, I don’t want to do that. I think that’s great that they’re still doing it because she’s younger
than I am. So, it’s good. That’s good that they’re doing that.
G: I did notice that there are a few. Mello, his sister. John and his sister Stephanie are active.
Let me conclude with one final question. What musical instrument did you learn?
N: Zero. Yah, it’s ironic, you know. None of my brothers, none of us played a musical
instrument. My father was, loved music, you know, and he played, but we never got the knack
for it. My father was, you know, even back in the Azores and I hear the stories, music was his
life. He would just play. Go to the band, go to the band, go to the band. The band was his life.
A lot of arguments at home sometimes with my mother about that stuff, but that was his (--) I
remember my dad getting up at 4:00 in the morning, driving to Ludlow, to go pick up two
players and bring them to Sunday practice, and then driving them back. All on his dime.
G: Incredible. He was very devoted.
N: He was, but he never had the patience to teach us. He taught the grandkids.
G: Oh, did he?
N: Yah, he taught his grandchildren how to play. For us it was always, he didn’t have the time,
because he was wrapped up into, you know, do, do, do, not teach.
G: Exactly. Well Norberto, thank you so much. I really appreciate it very much.
N: Well, thank you. It was a pleasure meeting you.
Interview ends.
29
�
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5d24f36ff96caf0366e304029f803dc2
Dublin Core
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Title
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UMass Lowell Portuguese American Oral Histories [1985-2018]
Description
An account of the resource
These oral histories with Portuguese immigrants and their descendants in the Greater Lowell area were conducted between 1985-2016. Topics covered include the experience of immigration, working conditions, family life, and more. These oral histories were funded by the Lowell National Historical Park, the American Folklife Center, and UMass Lowell.
Subject
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Azorean Americans
Children of immigrants
Cultural assimilation
Mills and mill-work
Portuguese American women
Format
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PDF
Language
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English
Type
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Document
Source
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All items can be found at the Center for Lowell History in Lowell, MA.
Publisher
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UMass Lowell, Center for Lowell History
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In Copyright - Educational Use Permitted: This Item is protected by copyright and/or related rights. You are free to use this Item in any way that is permitted by the copyright and related rights legislation that applies to your use. In addition, no permission is required from the rights-holder(s) for educational uses. For other uses, you need to obtain permission from the rights-holder(s).
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1985-2018
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Noberto Felix Oral History Interview
Date
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2023-03-21
Creator
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Fitzsimons, Gray
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Lowell (Mass.)
Lawrence (Mass.)
Source
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From UMass Lowell Oral History Collection.
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UMass Lowell, Center for Lowell History
Contributor
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Felix, Noberto
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In Copyright - Educational Use Permitted: This Item is protected by copyright and/or related rights. You are free to use this Item in any way that is permitted by the copyright and related rights legislation that applies to your use. In addition, no permission is required from the rights-holder(s) for educational uses. For other uses, you need to obtain permission from the rights-holder(s).
Format
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MP4
PDF
Language
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English
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Text
Audio
Description
An account of the resource
Noberto Felix was born on December 16, 1962 in Funchal on the island of Graciosa in the Azores. His family immigrated to the United States in 1963, when Noberto was three months old. The family immigrated as part of the Azorean Refugee Act.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Immigrant families
Immigrants
Azorean Americans
Mills and mill-work
Catholic Church--Dioceses
Catholic Church--Societies, etc.
Priests
Cultural assimilation
Code switching (Linguistics)
Soccer
Instrumentation and orchestration (Band)
Ethnic neighborhoods
Azorean Refugee Act
Colonial Band
Commodore Foods
Holy Ghost Park
Holy Ghost Society (Lowell, MA)
Lowell Lusitanos
Pioneer Club
Portuguese American Center (Lowell, M.A.)
Portuguese American Civic League (Lowell, M.A.)
Saint Anthony's Church (Lowell, MA)
-
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c8dada16ff175be4e0a39abd11821790
PDF Text
Text
UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SAAB CENTER FOR PORTUGUESE STUDIES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT
INTERVIEWEES: MARIA AND JOSEPH MENDONÇA
INTERVIEWER: GRAY FITZSIMONS
DATE: FEBRUARY 3, 2023
Biographical Sketch:
Maria Rosa was born on the Azorean Island of Faial in 1945. She was one of four children (two
brothers and a sister) and grew up in the village of Flamengos, a short distance from Horta, in a
four-room house constructed of stone. Her father operated a small farm. She attended the
public school in the village completing her education through grade 4. In 1957, when Maria was
12 years old, the Capelhinos volcano on Faial erupted, an event that altered the lives of many
Azoreans. In the United States, Congress passed special legislation liberalizing immigration for
all Azoreans.
Aided by a Portuguese family in Lowell, which sponsored Maria and her family, the Rosas
departed Faial in 1960, arriving in Boston and then traveling to Lowell, where she, her parents,
and her siblings settled in the city’s “Back Central” neighborhood. Maria entered the Lowell
public schools, attending the Colburn School in her neighborhood. Despite the difficulties with
having to learn English without any formal support by the public schools, Maria completed her
studies at the Colburn and then at the Butler Junior High School. At the age of 16 she received a
work permit and obtained a job at the Hathaway Shirt Company that operated a clothing
manufacturing firm in the old Hamilton Mill. She met her husband, Joseph Mendonça, in Lowell
and married him in 1966. Maria subsequently worked at the Raytheon Corporation and had a
son and daughter.
Born in 1942 in Ponta Garça on the island of São Miguel, Joseph Mendonça moved to the
United States at the age of 15, settling in Lowell with his family. His father had been born in Fall
River, Massachusetts, in 1905 and therefore had U.S. citizenship, despite returning to São
Miguel when he was quite young. Joseph attended a public school in Ponta Garça before
entering high school in Ponta Delgada. Upon moving to Lowell, he was placed in the Butler
Junior High School, but when he turned 16 he received a work permit and entered the employ
of Grace Shoe Company, one a several shoe manufacturers in the city. For a number of years,
Joseph worked in the shoe industry, while marrying Maria and beginning a family. He eventually
attained a high school degree and began work at BASF Industries. Joseph and Maria were active
1
�parishioners at St. Anthony’s Church in Lowell as well as in the Holy Ghost Society. Joseph
served as president of the Holy Ghost Society in the 1970s. They lived for a number of years in
Lowell’s Back Central neighborhood before purchasing a house in South Lowell.
Scope and Contents:
This interview focuses on several major themes: (1) Portuguese immigration from the Azores to
Lowell, as part of the “second great wave” of Portuguese immigration to the United States,
beginning in the late 1950s; (2) experiencing the Capelhinos volcanic eruption on the island of
Faial, beginning in 1957; (3) adjusting to life in the United States, notably in public schools prior
to the advent of bilingual education; (4) Portuguese institutions in Lowell notably St. Anthony’s
Roman Catholic Church and the Holy Ghost Society, as well as in the city’s Portuguese social
clubs.
G= GRAY
M=MARIA
J= JOSEPH
G: It is February 3, 2023. A very cold day out there.
J: Yes.
G: I’m in the home of Maria and Joseph Mendonça. Thank you very much for agreeing to this
interview.
J: You are welcome, Mr. Fitzsimons.
M: You are welcome, Mr. Fitzsimons.
G: The interview will be four parts. The first part will be your first recollections of coming to
Lowell. And then the second part will be about your homeland and your villages. And then,
what I’d like to do in the third part, is talk about your life in Lowell, the years you’ve spent here.
And finally, Joseph, this might apply more to you than Maria, but I’d like to talk to you a little bit
about the Holy Ghost Society, but you [Maria] might have some things to add too.
So, Maria, let me start with you. When did you immigrate from Faial, and when did you come
to Lowell?
M: In 1960. April 5, 1960.
G: And how old were you?
M: I was twelve.
G: Okay, did you come with your family?
M: You may need to erase that because I wasn’t twelve. I was thirteen.
2
�G: That’s okay. Thirteen.
M: No, I was fourteen, and I was going to turn fifteen in June. I came in April, April 5, 1960, and
I was turning fifteen on June 3.
G: And what do you remember about your traveling from the Azores to Lowell? How did you
come here?
M: We left Faial on the boat to Terceira Island. And then from Terceira we came directly to
Boston, Massachusetts.
G: To Boston. And then did you come right to Lowell, or did you go elsewhere?
M: We arrived in Boston, and there were some people, my parents’ friends that had sponsored
for us, they were there to pick us up, to bring us to Lowell. The family that, you know,
sponsored for us to come.
G: Was the International Institute [of Lowell] involved at all in this?
M: No, it wasn’t, they weren’t.
G: Okay. When you first came to Lowell where did you stay?
M: The first night we stayed at the family that had sponsored us. They were the brother-in-law
of the man that my father was friends with, in Faial. But because he had come earlier, he
wasn’t here long enough to sponsor for us. So, he asked his brother-in-law to sponsor us. So
we went directly to the ones that had sponsored us, but then at night we came to the family
that they were friends with my father, which they were families. They were brother and sister,
you know, those two families, but the one that wanted us to come to the United States, we
stayed there at their home.
G: What was the name of the family that sponsored you?
M: Antonio Mello.
G: Antonio Mello. And he was a friend of your father?
M: Yes, they had farms, you know, next to each other and they became friends. So, they were
very good friends.
G: Let me ask you, do you remember the voyage from Terceira to Boston?
M: Yes, I was excited, you know, coming to America, because you know, in those days America
was like a paradise. So, we were excited to come. I was young. So, I was excited to come to
the United States.
G: Were you nervous about coming?
M: No, I wasn’t. I was excited! No, I wasn’t nervous.
G: I see.
3
�M: And I didn’t mind leaving Faial. And I had a lot of friends and stuff, but I didn’t mind.
G: Was that your first time ever leaving Faial?
M: Yes.
G: So, you had never been to Terceira before?
M: No, it was an adventure for me. My oldest brother didn’t want to come because he was
older than me, two years older than me. He was very sad to leave Faial, his friends and stuff.
He was very sad for a long time when we arrived in the United States.
G: Did all your family come at the same time?
M: Yes, the six of us. Two brothers, and one sister.
G: Okay. And were you in Back Central when you first arrived in Lowell?
M: Yes. The first home that we stayed, we didn’t stay, we just went there, it was Quebec
Street, you know, in Lowell. And then we came to Walnut Street. And that’s where we stayed
for a while there, you know, that family.
G: So, Quebec Street is in Ayer’s City [section of Lowell]. And then you came very shortly then
to Walnut Street.
M: That same day. We first went, because the son that went to pick us up, that family, the
Moldeia you know, he went to pick us up.
G: How do you spell the name?
M: Moldeia, M O L D E I A.
G: Okay. Were they also from Faial?
M: Yes, they were all from Faial.
G: So, let me ask you, what were your first impressions of Lowell?
M: When I arrived to Boston, I saw all the lights from the plane. I was so excited. You know, it
didn’t bother me. You know, I liked it right from the beginning. I was never sorry that I had left
Faial.
G: Yes, but you never saw such tall buildings.
M: No, I didn’t, but you know, I was excited, you know, very excited. So, of course I had to go
to school. That was a problem, because school, not knowing the language, and it was a little
adjustment, you know. I recall I was sitting in front of this boy that was behind me. And I had
long hair, and he pulled my hair, because he didn’t care, because he knew that I didn’t speak
English. You know, I wasn’t going to tell the teacher. You know, he was being funny.
G: What school was that?
M: Colburn School on Lawrence Street.
4
�G: Colburn, of course. There were a lot of Portuguese students there, yes.
M: Not too many at that time.
G: Oh really? Okay.
M: So, I started to cry. Then the teacher went to get someone from the other class that also
spoke Portuguese. She’s still living. I forget her last name. Mary, her name was Mary, and she
came over and asked me why I was crying. And then they moved me to another, you know,
seat.
G: So, one final question about arriving in Back Central. In terms of the visual qualities, the
houses, the shops, did you have any initial impressions about that part of Lowell?
M: Like I said, I liked it right away, and it was interesting to me. And then there was a
neighbor, neighbors of ours that you know, after we went that first night and we got an
apartment on Whipple Street. And then we got to know this family that was right across from
the street from us. Very, very nice family. You know, they looked after us. And I used to go
babysit their children. And it was wonderful.
G: This was on Whipple Street.
M: Whipple Street, yes.
G: Do you remember the name of that family?
M: Yes, Barboza Family. And the daughter lived with the mother and the father. And her name
was Alice. She’s no longer with us, but her son is Steve Joncas.
G: Oh!
M: You know Steve Joncas?
G: Yes, I do.
M: Okay, that’s her son.
G: Oh, you’re kidding.
M: You know, yes. So, I used to be there all the time helping them and babysitting the two
children that Alice had, plus had Steve, you know, the oldest one.
G: And what was her relation to the Barbozas? Alice? Was she a daughter?
M: The daughter, the only daughter.
G: Okay, the only daughter. All right. Joseph, let me turn to you. I’m going to ask you some of
the same questions. What do you remember about your voyage from São Miguel?
J: São Miguel, right, by plane.
G: By plane?
5
�J: Actually, we were supposed to go by boat from São Miguel to Santa Maria. That’s where the
international airport used to be at the time. There was no other international airport. So, we
flew a plane, a seven-person plane.
G: You’re kidding.
J: No, that small. Seven, eight, whatever, but that’s a small.
G: You flew from Santa Maria to (--)
J: No, no. From São Miguel to Santa Maria, and there then we took the plane to Logan Airport.
G: Okay. And what year was that?
J: It was May 8, 1958, when I arrived in Boston. It took what? Nine and a half hours. There
were no jets then. But it was a great trip. I wanted to come to America because I didn’t care
about studying. When I was in grammar school, I was a good student. When I went to high
school, I started reading a lot of the American made magazines. You know, Roy Rogers,
Hopalong Cassidy, all those things there. So I did want to come over here when my parents
decided to come to the United States. It was, but the flight was right. Had a good flight.
G: Yes. You came with your entire family then?
J: No. If you want the whole story, I’ll say it now.
G: Please, yes.
J: My father was born in Fall River 1905.
G: What was your father’s name?
J: Manuel Mendonça. Manny, he used to be known. And his family went back to São Miguel
because they were there, immigrants like we came. So, then two, three years later my
grandparents decided to come back to the states. But when they moved back there was no, a
couple of sisters, and now I don’t know if it was my grandmother, or my grandfather, and they
didn’t want to come back to the States. And they asked my grandparents, why don’t you leave
little Manny with us, and then maybe a couple of years you come and get him, and he goes
back to you to the States. That never happened. When my father finally came back to the
United States, it was in 1957. So, it’s quite a story if I can. But back to your question, my oldest
brother Manny, still living, he was the first one to come to the States in 1956. And my father,
we had a lot of things there. We were like middle-class people. My father didn’t want to leave
everything behind and come over here. Then if my brother didn’t like it, it was just one person
to go back. So, I was saying, he came in 1957 by himself, because he was born in 1937. At the
time the United States laws were that any children of American citizens born in foreign
countries, they were American citizens. So, my brother came first, about six months later,
which was already 1957, then my father and my sister came, because my sister could come
alone too, because she was 39 and the law was still there. It wasn’t, you know, six months, but
it was pretty much three years or a little more. And then it was my mother, me and my two
younger brothers. And that was the third wave with the family.
6
�G: How old were you?
J: I was fifteen years old.
G: Fifteen years old, okay. And you flew into Logan.
J: I flew into Logan.
G: Did somebody meet you there at the airport?
J: My brother was there with my father, and my sister. And in those days, you know, the cars
were big. My brother already had a car.
G: Did he? He had a car.
J: He had a car.
G: What kind of car was it? Do you remember?
J: That I don’t. I know it was the big boat in the olden days. And he picked us up, and then we
came to Lowell. They already had an apartment.
G: Where was the apartment?
J: On Lawrence Street, next door to the old Colburn School.
G: Oh, right by the Colburn.
J: Right next door, and there used to be a grocery store on the bottom. It was a big block. It
extended from Lawrence Street to, that’s the Concord River, right. I think Concord River. We
used to live there way back when too.
G: Is that apartment building still there?
J: No, it was torn down. The other one [across the street], I believe it’s still there. But that was
torn down, and I think it’s just an empty spot there now.
G: I think you’re right. I think so. So, you came from São Miguel, fifteen years old. You arrive
in Lowell. What were your initial impressions of Lowell?
J: I loved Lowell, and it was big. Even though São Miguel, it’s a pretty big Island, and we have
some big buildings there too. And the excitement of, I liked America right away. In Lowell, you
know, [there are] wider streets. Everything is bigger than [in] São Miguel. Especially, São
Miguel has the reputation of very narrow streets, even the big city. Even today because, you
know, the old buildings. If you don’t get on the sidewalk, even the sidewalk you may get hit.
So, getting over here, it was you know, it was great, because I wanted to come to the States.
G: So, did you have any initial impressions of Back Central, the Portuguese neighborhood?
J: Yah, I remember those days. You know, I’ve been thinking about that, and it was a much
better neighborhood than it is today.
7
�G: It was back then?
J: Back then because there were a lot of Portuguese immigrants there. As we worked, we got a
few dollars, then we bought an apartment, we bought a two-family home. The neighborhoods,
as you know.
G: Where was the two-family that you bought?
J: No, no. People, you know, the immigrants after, they bought houses all around Saint
Anthony’s Church, Back Central, the neighborhood. And everybody had flowers on their front
lawns. And they had, you know, the grapevines, you know, to make their wine. And it was
nice. It was nice there.
G: So where did you live then with your family when you first arrived?
J: On Lawrence Street.
G: So, were you there for quite a few years, on Lawrence Street, or did you move?
J: We lived there not too long. And I remember the old stove. Kerosene? Something like that.
No gas. There was no gas in those days. And then we moved across the street, pretty much
across the street to a two-family home. My parents knew, you know, the man that bought this
here, through work, and all that, they became friends. And the apartment was a better
apartment. So, we moved there.
G: On Lawrence Street still?
J: On Lawrence Street. That one I know, still know the address. 114 Lawrence Street. When I
first went to Colburn, I didn’t have to cross the street. But then, like I said, we stayed. By the
time we moved there I was out of school. There’s a story about that too.
G: Did you speak any English when you first arrived?
J: Well, I knew how to say “watch” through my brother from here. No, I didn’t speak English.
G: But your brother had learned some English by then.
J: Yah, my brother could speak English perfectly.
G: No kidding.
J: Yah. He went to high school to the seventh year. It was different. The system right now is
the same as the American. On the olden days it was different. I did take French. When I came
here, if I had gone to Quebec, Canada, it would have been fine.
G: So, you spoke some French?
J: I spoke some French. Today, bonjour, monsieur, that’s about it.
G: So, again, both of you were students when you first arrived in school.
J: Yes, there’s a story about that if I can mention it.
8
�G: Please, yes.
J: Like I said, I went to Colburn School. I think I came in May, pretty much the beginning. So, I
went to school a week later, until June sometime.
G: So, 1958.
J: In 1958. And my birthday is on September 4. Like the olden days until recently, nobody
would go back to school until after Labor Day. So, I turned sixteen, I forget the year what it
was, but I know when I went back to school, I was sixteen years old. But my English was still
very, not much. And in grammar school you could only go on your age as far as fifteen years
old. So, when I went back to school, still through an interpreter, you know, Portuguese kid, his
first name was Bernie, I guess Bernard Bettencourt. I won’t forget. Haven’t seen him. And he
was my interpreter. So, Principal, Mr. Markham, he now went to him to say that I couldn’t stay
there. You see, I went to school that morning and my parents, my brothers, and sisters, they
went to work, and the younger siblings went to school. So, my parents knew I went to school.
But the first day I was told because I didn’t speak enough English, I couldn’t stay there. So, he
sent me to Butler School, I think the one on Gorham Street. It’s not there any longer. I think
the Dollar Tree is there now, the store.
G: Yes, but I remember the Butler School.
J: I went there. I don’t remember the person. I don’t know if it was the principal.
G: Let me ask you, why did they send you from the Colburn?
J: Because I was too old to be in the grammar school, they used to call them?
G: But I thought the Butler was also a grammar, or was that a junior?
J: No, it was the junior high already. I think Colburn was the seventh grade, and then Butler
was the eighth grade. And I didn’t know enough English to be there with the older kids more
advanced.
G: Let me ask you one thing though. You said both of you had interpreters.
J: Yes.
G: How were you assigned an interpreter? Who assigned you one?
J: It wasn’t assigned. It just happened to be kids that spoke Portuguese and English.
M: The teachers knew that they were Portuguese.
J: We didn’t have, in those days we didn’t have what do you call it? They had it for years. They
had some people in school. There was a name for that. I think we don’t hear about that
anymore.
G: Those who could help out with languages?
J: Right. There was a big controversy about that, because I never believed in that either.
9
�G: So, were there any Portuguese teachers that you knew of at the Colburn?
J: No. In those days there were, the Portuguese came on, and we have some today. They
came much later.
M: No, no Portuguese. No bilingual.
J: Bilingual. Bilingual.
G: Bilingual instruction.
J: Instructors. We had that officially in some schools, but I don’t hear about that anymore.
G: But it’s interesting that you found your own interpreters basically.
J: Well, the kids were there, and the teacher knew, the principal did know that they could
speak both Portuguese and English.
G: I see.
J: And there was this young man, you know, probably a couple of years younger than I was.
G: So, getting back to when you were sent then from the Colburn to the Butler, what was that
like?
J: No, I had been at the Colburn May and June. So that first day there, it didn’t take long there,
because whoever the person, like I said, I don’t remember, spoke with Bernie and with me. I
have no idea what was said, because my English was still very (--)
M: Poor.
G: But when you were sent, from the first day when school started at the Colburn, you were
sent to the Butler.
J: That same day.
G: That same day. First of all, did you have to walk from the Colburn to the Butler?
J: Yes, we did.
G: That’s quite a walk.
J: It’s still, but we were young, fifteen and sixteen years old.
G: So, what do you remember about that?
J: And then I was sent back to Colburn.
G: You’re kidding. The principal sent you back?
J: It must have been the principal that we spoke with. That I don’t remember. So, when we
went back to Colburn School, you know, Bernie told the Principal, Mr. Markham. And then he
said, because I was sixteen years old, I couldn’t go to that school; that I would have to go to
work. And then he said you have to go to night school to learn English. So, as I said earlier, my
10
�parents, my older siblings, they all went to work and the other three, including me went to
school. So that same day, you know, and jobs then, shoes, it doesn’t matter, Lowell was a
magnet for jobs. The same day, because I already had friends that I made in the Portuguese
American Civic League Club on Central Street, I knew some of them. So I went to Grace Shoe,
cause some of them worked there. I knocked at the door. I spoke with them. I went to work
that day.
G: Wow, right away.
J: Right away. Went to school in the morning. A couple was later there. So, when my parents
came home from work, that I’m not sure whether they come home first, or I was home first,
but when they found out that I went to work, I told them the whole story. My parents,
especially my father, was devastated, because he really wanted to have an education for us.
Because when we went to high school there.
G: In São Miguel.
J: In São Miguel, it was paid then. If you were not middle class, or higher, you go four years to
school and then you go work the fields, and go do some fishing, make a living from there. So,
we were fortunate. We, like I said, we’re not rich, you know. So, like I said, my parents,
especially my father. My mother was, but my father he was with the state [government], can
you do this? Can you do that? I said, “Dad, I have to.” I couldn’t go to school, but I will go to
night school, which I did. And there is a story to that too.
G: Let me come back to that, because when I talked to (--)
J: Yes, I don’t want to go.
G: No, this is fine, but I don’t want to rigidly hold to this, but I do want to cover a little about
that later. So, just shifting gears a little bit to family history, your family background. Maria, let
me ask you again. You were born on the Island of?
M: Faial. Flamengos was the village. Flamengos.
G: How do you spell that?
M: F L A M E N G O S, Flamengos Village.
G: Thank you. Describe what was the village like?
M: It was beautiful. It was like a valley, you know, it was very pretty. I liked it. I liked it a lot.
G: Were there many people living in that village?
M: Yah, I would say. I don’t know how many, but you know, fairly amount of people.
G: Did you know most of the people in the village?
M: Yes because it was a small village. We knew most of them, most of the people.
G: Was there a church in that village?
11
�M: Oh yes. Yes, there was a church not far from us, where we lived. We’d go by foot because
we didn’t have a car. Those days, no cars. So, we used to go to the church Sundays. And as
young as I was, twelve years old, the teachers, the CCD teachers, they asked me to teach the
preschoolers, you know, teach them by a catechism book. You know, ask questions and
answers. You know, tell them. So, I remember that vividly, you know, teaching them. It was a
big deal for me. I was a teacher, and I was young too, you know, but teaching the little ones, I
liked it a lot.
G: What was your house like? How would you describe your house?
M: It was not big. You know, four rooms. Like a ranch. Let’s put it that way. Yah, four rooms,
a kitchen. The bedroom, there was four of us, you know, four children. So, the girls, me and
my sister would sleep in one bed, and my brothers, my two brothers on the other bed in the
same room, but there was a petition there. And then there was a living room, no. Yah, a living
room for visits. And then my parents had big, one bedroom. It was four rooms.
G: And the kitchen.
M: And the kitchen. It was four rooms all together.
G: Okay. What was the house constructed with? Was it wood, or was it?
M: No, it was stone.
G: Stone, yes.
M: Made out of stone.
G: Was it a farm that you lived on?
M: Not really a farm, no. My father had a farm, but you had to go out of the house to go to the
farm.
G: Okay. So, the farm was some distance from the house.
M: Yes, not right there.
G: And what was the street like where you lived? Were there houses very close to you?
M: Where we lived wasn’t too many houses. You know, it was more in the outskirts, you know,
the village. But you know, there were houses there. We all got along well, you know, the
neighbors and I had friends that got along good.
G: What do you remember about your schooling in the village?
M: I liked it. You know, the teachers were nice, especially one, she was very nice. But one was
very strict. You know she was, I could say mean, because there was a girl. She was kind of, she
had like a little problem learning. And the teacher wanted her to learn no matter what. And
she had like, a whip, and she would hit her if she didn’t understand. She would hit her in the
head. I remember that vividly. I didn’t like that. The poor thing, she couldn’t, you know, like
now they have school for special needs, and she was a special needs child. The teacher didn’t
12
�understand. Well, she might have understood, but she wanted her to learn no matter what. I
didn’t like that.
G: Yes. So how old were you when you started school?
M: Good question.
G: Like five or six years old?
M: No, I think I was seven.
G: Seven, okay.
M: Yah, I think it was the age, you know, that we start. Yah, seven.
G: As Joseph was saying, was the school, it was essentially elementary school, correct, and then
schooling beyond that you had to pay for? Is that correct?
M: Yes, so I just have up to the fourth grade. It was the grammar school, but we learned a lot.
On those four years we learned a lot. It wasn’t like you know, you had to learn the whole thing.
G: I see. So, you learned obviously to read, to write, and a little bit of arithmetic.
M: Oh yes, problems, you know, arithmetic, yes.
G: Did you have a little bit of history as well?
M: Yes, we had a book on history too. We had to learn the whole book. All the Kings, and how
Portugal was discovered.
G: The Kings of Portugal.
M: Yes.
G: Well, let me ask you about the Capelinhos volcano. What do you remember about the
eruptions? How old were you when they started?
M: I was, let’s say, twelve? Maybe twelve years old. And it started, you know, the
earthquakes. And they started strong. And we were petrified. I remember that I was petrified.
And I was crying, telling my mother that we are going to die, because we could hear and feel
the roar. You know, it was like monsters underneath the ground. You know, like a roar. And I
was petrified. And then we went to my grandparents’ house because my grandmother was
sick, very sick.
G: How far away was that house?
M: No too far. Walking distance. So, we went there so she wouldn’t be alone because
everybody was out in the streets, because they were afraid that the houses were coming down.
G: Yes. Could you feel the ground shaking?
M: Oh yes, and the ground and the roar. It was like a monster sound. So, I was petrified. So,
we would take turns to be with my grandmother. Then go outside and then come in. Scream
13
�again. The next day we found out that the volcano had erupted. It was in the ocean. And good
thing, because as big as the volcano was, the scientist said that had that volcano had erupted
on the Island, on the land, we would have gone, be all perished. So, a good thing it erupted in
the ocean. But the village near where the volcano erupted was all destroyed. They evacuated
the people.
G: Was your house damaged at all?
M: There were a few cracks and stuff, but not a lot like some other ones near the place where
the volcano erupted.
G: I meant to ask you your family’s name. Your maiden name?
M: My maiden name was Rosa.
G: Rosa, yes. And with the volcanic eruptions there was a special legislation passed in the
United States, the Azorean Refugee Act. And were you able to take advantage of that to come
to the U.S.?
M: Yes, that’s how we came.
G: If you recall how did that work as far as, did you have to sign up to do this?
M: Yah, I think we did. Yes, and the friend of my father’s, you know, they worked side by side
on the farm, he already had come into the United States, and we heard about this law.
G: Did you hear about that by a letter that he wrote back to you?
M: I don’t know if it was a letter, but we knew if we had somebody that could sponsor us, we
could come to the United States, but the person that would sponsor us had to be in the United
States for five years, at least five years, had to have $5,000 in the bank at least, and sponsor us
for the five years. But you know, my father’s friend that already had came, because family, his
family was already here in the United States, because I guess his sister, my father’s friend’s
sister was already here. I think she was born here.
G: In Lowell?
M: In Lowell.
G: I see. Do you remember that name?
M: Her name?
G: Yes.
M: I know the husband’s name.
G: Oh, then what’s the husband’s name?
M: Oh my god.
G: That’s okay. If it comes to you that’s fine.
14
�M: Moldeia is the last name, but his first name is José Moldeia. José.
G: José.
M: She was, oh my god, I forget her name. Ricky’s mother’s name. I forget her name now.
J: Right, they had the same name.
G: When you came to Lowell, I meant to ask you, were there others from Faial who came as a
result of the volcano?
M: Yes, there were others too.
G: And you met them?
M: Yes. There were others that came too. Not too many.
G: Did you actually know them in Faial, or did you meet them for the first time here?
M: Who else that came? I forget now.
G: That’s okay. Were there others from your village though, that came to Lowell?
M: Later on in years they came, you know, to us.
G: Some years later, yes.
M: Yah, but I think we were the only ones at that time from the village that came, that I recall.
G: Okay, very good. Joseph, let me turn to you. I’m going to ask you similar questions. Again,
what was the village where you were born?
J: Ponta Garça.
G: And how far is that from Ponta Delgada?
J: We used to say in Portuguese, “sete lagoas.” To put that in kilometers, it was a good ride. I
don’t know how many kilometers, or miles to go there.
G: Yes, it wasn’t within walking distance though, was it?
J: No. Some people would do that in like a pilgrimage that they still do today. There’s a huge
feast honoring Jesus Christ, and they go on pilgrimage, and it takes them hours to get there.
G: And they walk.
J: And they walk. Like they go to Santiago de Compostela, and all that.
M: In those days they walked. It’s a lot of walking.
J: On the olden days, you know, a bus to get there from Ponta Garça. Of course, there was a
few stops would take more than an hour. But even the taxi, or something like that, close to an
hour. But today they have opened some more highways thru the mountains, you know,
technology today, it takes about twenty, twenty-five minutes. That’s their breakthrough.
15
�G: And what was the village like where you grew up?
J: Quiet. It’s a long village. I think it’s about maybe three, four kilometers long. And when I
was there, they had a couple of side streets we called canales. Quite a few houses there, but
there was just one main street. And from the beginning until the end, it is a long walk. And it
was nice. It was quiet. You know, people were friendly. We lived near the church, and just a
quiet life.
G: What was the name of the church?
J: Senhora de Piedade, Our Lady of Sorrows.
G: That’s beautiful. Did you know many of the people in the village? Did you know quite a
few?
J: The neighborhood, yes, but the whole village, no. So many people. There’s about seven
thousand people then.
G: Seven thousand. So, that’s a pretty big town.
J: Today it’s down to five, or something like that. The immigration brought a lot of us here.
G: What was the major occupation of people who lived in Ponta Garça?
J: There was some desk jobs. You talking about Ponta Garça only?
G: Yes, Ponta Garça.
J: Ponta Garça. There were a few there, but most of the people worked on the farms, or
fishing. That was the two main ones there. But there were people like, you know, they had
stores, or something like that. But actually, my father had a desk job there too. I think we had
there sometimes.
G: Did he work for the government?
J: It is government. It was government as far as I know.
G: So, what did he do?
J: Well, he was like a secretary for that, I’m trying to convey. They used to help the people, the
poor people who were there. Like the nurse would go there a couple of times.
G: Yes, like social service.
J: Thank you, exactly. Social service.
G: I see. Interesting.
J: And my father was, we call escriba. It’s a secretary. He did all the paperwork, you know, for
that.
G: Would you describe the village as mostly of peasants, farm people?
16
�J: It’s mostly peasants. There were some rich people there too. They owned a lot of land.
They have money, but the majority I think I could say, they were, there were different ways
with some people them days that they’re struggling to eat a piece of bread.
G: Is that right.
J: And others, like I was fortunate I never went through that. We never went through that.
And there were some rich people, families. Not that many, because it was a rural town and all
that.
G: There were a few rich people, a small middle class, and then a large.
J: A large, you know, poor people.
G: Poorer people, yes.
J: They work and all that, but I remember some of them really struggling to live, and of course
their pay rate was lousy on those day. A lot of the people struggled.
G: Was there any manufacturing, or any production of any goods there?
J: In Ponta Garça, no. I think today, I’m not sure. Even today I don’t think. They have some,
but it’s other parts of the Island even today, but they have a bunch, you know, that took them a
while. Grocery stores, cafes. You know, you go there, and they have a lot of things to socialize
and all that.
G: What are your favorite memories of Ponta Garça?
J: I was growing up with kids. You know, I had some friends there in the neighborhood, which
was born together. Actually, I had quite a few friends, but there were two of them actually,
yesterday with some friends here in Lowell we were reminiscing the things there. Because I
was born on September the 4th. John Francis was born I think a week before me. And Joseph
Eugene Contaldo [Is this correct?] was born a week after me. And we, like I said, we played
with the other kids, everybody, the three of us you know.
G: What year was that by the way? What year were you born?
J: I was born in 1942. I almost gagged on that. [Laughs]
G: You went to school in Ponta Garça?
J: I went to school, yah, in Ponta Garça. I don’t know if it was, must have been between six and
seven, and I went to the four years of elementary school. But because, like I said earlier, my
parents, you know, middle class, I did go to high school. I had to go to Ponta Delgada.
G: Oh, you did, for high school?
J: I did for high school.
G: I see. How did you, did you take a bus there?
17
�J: No, I dormed there.
G: Oh, you did?
J: I lived there, but I was only there the first semester, because I did so bad in high school. It
was a big thing from elementary school to high school. I went to a pretty good student to a
dumb, dumb. And then I came to Vila Franca do Campo, which is a town close to Ponta Garça,
and they had a smaller high school there, but it was the same thing. Actually, we call it College
in the Vila Franca, you know, college. But it’s not college. It means something else. And then
you know, I was there. And like I said earlier, it’s okay. I don’t mind if I say that, because it’s,
I’m talking bad about myself. I flunked the first year, and then I repeat it, and I was on my
second year. And then I was doing good the second year. And I knew I was going to pass. I had
to go, you know, if I pass and all that. But then we came here in May. So, I didn’t complete.
But on those three and a half years, that’s when I learned French. It was mandatory to learn
French.
G: French?
J: French. If I may say, I don’t know if you want this on record, on those days, if you go to high
school, the first three years, no, the first two years you had to take French. From the third year
to the fifth year, you had to continue French and learn English.
G: Oh really, you learned English.
J: It was mandatory. Everything was mandatory. And then from the fifth to the seventh years,
which is the end then you go to the university, you had to keep the French, you had to keep the
English. Then you had a choice, either take German or Latin. That’s the old days, but of course
I didn’t get there. I didn’t even get to English because I was repeating my second year.
G: Of course, yes. Did you have a favorite subject though in school?
J: I was good in Geography. I was better in French than Portuguese believe it or not.
G: So, you could both speak and write French?
J: Pretty much. Not really that well, but I could. But Geography, I knew the whole map. You
know, it’s a small country, but we had to learn even the railroad strikes through the country,
and the stations. We had to learn that. We had to learn all the capitals, especially Europe, but
in those days, I knew all the capitals of the world. Of course, in those days there were not too
many nations like today. There were less nations. And I was good, and I liked it. History, I was
pretty good too. I didn’t care too much, but I did learn somethings. Today I love history.
G: When you were both young, growing up in the Azores, did you feel much of an attachment
to Portugal, the Mainland? It’s government, it’s people?
J: Yah, we were Portuguese. Over here we are Azoreans. And I know some people going back
many years, you know, some high people, they say, “I’m Azorean first, and then I’m
Portuguese.” But they were all Portuguese from the Azores.
M: The Azores belong to Portugal.
18
�J: Well, there was Portuguese immigrants.
M: All Portuguese.
J: Now, I didn’t feel that in São Miguel, Ponta Garça.
G: Yes, but you knew some people that did feel that difference.
J: Yah, some people even today they’re Azoreans.
M: Yah, they don’t want to be called from the mainland, you know, even though it all belonged
to the same.
J: Yah, I’m Azorean too, but I mean it’s not an independent country, even with the autonomy
that’s been there for so many years. It’s still Portugal. It’s still a piece of Portugal. But some
people like that, “I’m Azorean.” So, am I, but why brag it?
G: It’s an interesting perspective.
J: Yes, it is.
G: Yes, very good. All right. Let me shift gears completely back to the U.S., to Lowell. And let
me ask, where did you two meet?
M: Through my brother, because he was very good friends with my brother. And he used to
come to our house.
J: I used to go to your house to paint with you. And then Jerry, sometimes they go to my
house.
M: That’s my brother.
J: To eat with me and my parents.
G: What’s your brother’s name?
M: Jerry.
J: Rogerio.
G: Rogerio.
M: Rogerio. But you know, when he came to the United States, he changed it to Gerry. It’s
Gerry now. It’s easier than Rogerio.
J: Okay, I will not interrupt.
G: What year did you guys meet?
J: Like I said, you know, when I start (--)
G: Were you at Grace Shoe at that time?
19
�J: Yes, I was at Grace Shoe at that time. And Jerry, he worked at Grace Shoe too, or
somewhere else? Or you came two years after I did.
M: Yes.
G: Maria, were you working at Grace Shoe as well?
M: No, I worked at the Hathaway Shirts. After school, after I was done in school, because I
couldn’t continue anymore, unless I wanted to, you know, to go to high school, but I wanted to
go to work to make money. Yah, so I went to Hathaway Shirts.
G: Hathaway, and you were sixteen at that time?
M: Yes, I was almost seventeen when I went to work. So, I applied for that. Hathaway Shirts
we used to make. They’re still famous. So, I worked there.
G: I’m sorry, what year did you two meet? Do you remember?
J: That I don’t remember. Like I said, we knew each other.
G: It was in the 1960s though?
J: It was in the ‘60s, because you came here in the 60s.
M: ‘60s, yah, because I came in 60. So, it had to be. We got married in 1966.
J: But I think I knew Jerry, because I was going to the Portuguese American Civic League Club,
and then Jerry went there too. And I think it was there that we met. So, it could have been 61,
because when you came here in 60, I think a few months later Gerry started to go to the club.
He started to work. And then he chummed with other people.
M: And then you used to come over to our house. And that’s how we met.
J: I think Jerry and I, it could have been at the club, or at work. I don’t remember, but then I
started going to her house. Yes, so we became best friends.
G: Let me ask you, apart from the church, apart from Saint Anthony’s, was the Portuguese
American Civic League the most important organization for you in Lowell?
J: Most important? It was a place to go there, and chum with the young guys, you know, young
kids, because I say that to many people. I grew up with a lot of kids my age and older from
Graciosa, because in those day, and even today, no, today it’s not so much, but Graciosa I think
was the number one, you know, people over here from there and Madeira, Madeiran people.
Actually, São Miguel, when I came over here in 1958, was an older couple that my parents new
them from Ponta Garça. And we were the second family when all of us came over here.
G: What was the name of that family? Do you remember?
J: I don’t remember the family.
G: And what sort of things did you do at the Portuguese American Civic League?
20
�J: Play cards and have a beer behind the door. Just go there.
M: Play pool probably?
J: No, we didn’t have pool tables then. It was a Civic League, but by the time I came, then we
understand before I came, they did have all the activities there, but it died down. But when I
came, they still had the boxing gloves there.
G: Did you know Arthur Ramalho? Ramalho’s Gym?
J: I knew him by sight, but never really met much.
G: Yes, he was big into boxing.
M: Oh yes.
J: I knew him a lot from the Lowell Sun.
G: Okay. Let me ask you about Saint Anthony’s Church. You both started to go there not long
after you arrived in Lowell, right?
J: The Sunday after.
M: We went to church right away you know as soon as we got here.
J: Every Sunday. We didn’t miss church.
M: Walking distance from where we lived, with me, you know, Whipple Street.
G: You were just on Lawrence Street.
J: Yah, we walked there.
G: And you remember Father John Silva.
J: He married us.
M: He married us.
G: Do you remember? What were your impression? When you first went to Saint Anthony’s
what were your impressions of Father John?
J: I don’t know. It’s a priest. We respected the priests there very much, and we just respect
them.
M: We didn’t think he was mean or anything. You know, he was our priest.
J: Yah, he was our priest.
M: We liked him.
J: As I can remember, yah.
G: I understand, I’ve heard from others, that he was very aware of the time, and it was very (--)
21
�M: Kind of strict.
J: He was strict. He was strict in things, and sometimes you know, as a human being he
exploded for no reason, though he shouldn’t, but then within minutes everything was fine again
with him. He’d forget whatever he did. Yes, he did make some mistakes. I still make so many
today.
G: Well, we all do, right.
M: We had that respect for the priest, you know. We didn’t, weren’t upset, or anything. It’s
the priest, we respected them. You had to obey and that’s it.
J: Both of the priests there, very, very much respected. We accept them.
G: And he was followed by Eusebio.
M: Eusebio, that was his cousin.
G: Eusebio, thank you.
J: They’re cousins.
G: They’re cousins, and you got to know Eusebio.
M: Oh yes, very well.
J: Yes. Well, we became friends. But when we get to the Holy Ghost I’ll get there.
G: Okay, we can hold off then. So, you got married in 1966. Were you still at Grace Shoe at
that point?
J: No, at that time, when Eddie was born in 69, I was at Simon Shoe.
G: Oh, so you went to a different company?
J: I worked in different shoe shops in Lowell. And one time, you know, I’d work on one for a
couple of hours, and I went to the other one because I didn’t like it. Those days we did that. I
remember working Scotty Shoe. I quit I think, I forget the one. Went to Scotty Shoe, worked
there two hours. You know, it was sneakers we made there. And the smell, the rubber in the
heat, it had to be in the summertime. I worked two days. I quit. From there the one by, your
parents lived on the street.
M: Not Nesmith Street, no.
J: I worked in different shoe shops in Lowell.
G: What was your job? What did you do at the different shoe shops?
J: I did different jobs. I worked pretty much what we called then the Lasting Room. You know,
the uppers come from the ladies’ department, and we put them on a form. And I did do
different operations there through the years.
G: In the Lasting Department.
22
�J: In the Lasting Department. And then pretty much in the end, when the shoe companies
were getting, I was a foreman at Simon Shoe.
G: Oh, you were a foreman at Simon Shoe? Did you by chance know Dimas Espinola then,
because he was working also in the shoe factory for a number of years?
J: I believe he did work in shoe factories.
G: He was a foreman too.
J: See, if I knew that, I don’t remember now. I know Grace Shoe was my first job.
G: So, you wound up as foreman at Simon? Where was their factory by the way?
J: On Market Street. It is the LTC [Lowell Telecommunications] on the bottom there for the
worker.
G: Yah, the Market Mills.
J: The Market Mills, third floor? There was some other manufacturing there.
G: Were there many other Portuguese working at Simon?
J: Oh yah, there were quite a few Portuguese. A lot of Portuguese worked in shoe shops,
different ones. And the ladies making dresses. Well, you made shirts.
M: Shirts.
J: But there was a lot of people in those days, you know, we all worked in shoe shops.
G: What did you do at Hathaway?
M: I was a stitcher. You know, the men’s shirt, you know, inside, I used to do the (--) There was
the first filling.
J: Seam.
M: Seam, and then a second, I was doing the second. My sister used to close the sides, and I
went over the second, you know, stitching.
G: Were they almost all female working there?
M: Mostly, yah. There were male, men there too.
G: Some male stitchers too?
M: Not stitchers. Mostly it was women, but they [men] were supervisors, or group leaders.
G: The men were supervisors.
M: Supervisors, group leaders, you know. And what do you call it? You know, carrying the
shirts from one place to another.
G: Were you paid by the piece rate?
23
�M: Piece work. It was piece work. The more I make, the more I made.
G: Do you remember what your pay was roughly?
M: I don’t know. A dollar, a dollar something an hour.
G: A dollar something an hour roughly?
M: Yah, I think so.
G: And how many hours a day did you work?
M: Eight hours, but a lot of times overtime. You know, we’d work overtime.
G: Was it five days a week, Monday through Friday?
M: Oh yes, the whole week.
G: Joseph, what about you at the shoe company? Was it five days a week?
J: It was five days a week, and I started at a dollar an hour. And I worked for that pay for either
two, or something years, because if you don’t know how to speak well, or have somebody to,
they wouldn’t give any, you know, up the rates. And then finally, I think I spoke up. By the time
I could speak some English, but it takes a while for you to converse with people, talk with them
like we are doing today.
G: I do want to ask both of you about learning English but let me just finish up about for your
work. Were they nonunion shops where you worked?
J: Yes. They were all nonunion.
M: No, I had a union.
J: I had no union.
G: International Ladies Garment Workers Union?
M: Yah, Hathaway Shirts, and then later on Raytheon with the union.
J: But the shoe shops we had no union.
G: No union at all. Do you remember any attempts to organize the workers?
J: Not the shoe shops. And later on, when I left the shoe business, I went to work at BASF. I
worked there for twenty-two and a half years. And we tried. We, because I was involved, and
we were not successful.
G: Was there a vote to unionize?
J: Yes, we had a couple of votes, and then it died down. But we couldn’t complain, because
Raytheon had a couple of things that were a little better than us. The pay scale at Raytheon
was better than BASF, but the benefits, we had the same and some were better than theirs.
G: Where was the BASF Plant that you worked at?
24
�J: At Bedford.
G: In Bedford.
J: Bedford, Massachusetts.
G: Were their quite a few Portuguese again, where you worked at Hathaway?
M: Oh yes, there was a lot of Portuguese women there.
G: Let me ask you again about learning English. And I think about how hard it is for me to try to
learn Portuguese.
M: It’s a hard language.
G: So, you spoke no English when you came to the U.S. And how did you learn the language?
M: I learned in school, the time that I went to school.
G: At the Colburn?
M: Yah, at the Colburn, yes. What I learned was there, whatever I learned. And then our
neighbors from Whipple Street too. You know, the daughter of the Barbozas, you know, she
had taught me a lot too. So, I learned from her, you know.
G: Did you have a television set when you were little?
M: Here? Yah, not when we first got here, but then we got black and white TV.
G: Did that help you learn English too, watching TV?
M: Yes, again, by watching TV, yah, we learned a little. But we learned with each other.
G: More so with each other.
M: Yes, with friends and stuff, that I hung around with, you know.
G: How about you, Joseph?
J: It was pretty much the same. Like I said, I did go to night school as I said.
G: Yah, I wanted to ask you about your night school? Where was the school?
J: Somewhere downtown Lowell. I don’t remember the building.
G: Yah, somewhere in the downtown.
M: Probably at Lowell High? No?
J: No.
G: I think there was an annex.
J: Yah, it was an annex somewhere, but it’s on downtown. I don’t remember the address.
G: What do you remember about your experience at night school?
25
�J: It’s a funny experience. I did go there. I didn’t know much. I could understand. I was
starting to read, you know, I knew the alphabet. So, the first year in my school I did learn
something. So, when I went in the second year, I was there for a couple of months, and I was
doing well. You know, not like now we’re talking, but well enough that I never forgot that.
There was an older Portuguese lady that went to night school a couple of months after night
school started, and the teacher asked me to teach her the alphabet. I did that maybe three, or
four nights. And then I said, “I come here to learn and I’m teaching?” So, I quit. And then at
work, you know, some talk and this and that. And since we came here, and my father, we
always had the Lowell Sun in our house. And when we got married, we still have it. I’ll cancel it
once I’m over there. But I think I learned something from there. And if I may add to it, you
know, with my school, and since you asked me. It was a year or so before BASF closed down,
and by that time we had a lot of Asian people there. That’s when the Asians really come in.
And BASF had paid teachers for anybody who wanted to go, who had to learn English, or like in
those days a lot of kids quit school. They didn’t have high school. And they give us the chance
to learn. We had, twice a week, a two-hour class, from 2:00 to 4:00. And our work hours were
from 7:00 to 3:00. So, they would pay us that one hour and the other one I was out. So, I was
there for a few months. By the time then my English was pretty good. So, I’m proud to say I do
have the ring from Lowell High School. GED.
G: G E D. You got your GED. Was that through BASF?
J: It was through, yes. Well, we learned there. I went there. Then I had to go to high school. I
applied to go there, and I went for the test there.
G: What year did you get our GED?
J: I think it was ‘90 or ‘92. I have the ring there somewhere. I do have a high school ring.
G: Congratulations! That’s very good.
J: Thank you. I am proud of that.
G: Let me ask you both an unusual question. Do you dream in English or Portuguese?
J: That is a good question. I think it’s mostly in English.
G: Is it really?
J: I think it is.
M: Yah, me too.
J: We speak Portuguese all the time. We have friends.
G: To each other.
J: To each other.
M: To each other. All the time it’s Portuguese.
26
�J: When the kids are together it’s mostly English. And we have some friends that we go back
and forth, English and Portuguese.
G: But when you are together do you typically speak Portuguese exclusively? Or is it a mix?
The two of you.
J: Oh, the two of us, it’s Portuguese.
M: When we speak, always Portuguese.
G: Always in Portuguese.
J: Sometimes we may put an English word there, which is pretty much common in Portugal
today. The English has infiltrated Portugal culture, but that’s good. I got to pay attention to
that.
M: Pay attention in your next dream.
G: In your next dream. Okay.
J: That’s a great question.
G: Let me ask you some questions about the changes to Back Central. And then we’ll talk
about the Holy Ghost. We’ll wrap things up. But you said early years in Back Central it really
was quite different.
M: Yes.
G: How do you think it’s changed over time? And please be candid. You don’t need to (--)
J: Well, like I said, I am a proud Portuguese American. Portuguese by birth, and American by
love. I’m proud to say that. And our neighborhood, you know, Back Central, it was nice and
clean like I said earlier. The streets nice and clean. The house was a nice paint, and then
flowers everywhere. But as the years went by, some got older, and they died. And now they’re
the younger ones, like our kids, they moved out.
G: Yes, your kids moved away?
J: They moved away.
M: One is in New Hampshire. The other one is in Salem, Massachusetts.
J: And it happened to many families. So, when you move out, somebody moves in. And then
we had other ethnic groups that came in. And unfortunately, it’s not all of them, no, no,
because I am foreigner myself, but some of them have made a mess of Back Central Street.
M: But it’s still not too bad. It’s still a good neighborhood.
J: There’s still quite a few Portuguese there, older people, they live there. They’re not going to
move out, but it is not the same. Even our parish is not the same. It’s too dirty and the whole
thing.
27
�G: I was going to ask you about that too. But as far as the neighborhood goes, I do think
people still generally consider Back Central as the Portuguese neighborhood in Lowell.
J: Right, it is still considered that. There’s still a lot of us living there.
G: But clearly it has changed over the years. Is there any particular time period that you can
think of when you saw changes occurring more rapidly?
J: That I cannot pin down.
G: So, do you think it was a gradual kind of change?
J: I think it was gradual.
M: Yah, I think it was gradual, more gradual.
J: Because as some of us move out.
M: Because people moved out and others came in.
J: And like I said, and I want this to be clear, it’s not everyone.
G: Of course.
J: Because I don’t want to say anything against. Even today, if I say too much everybody is
going to know there’s an ethnic group that will trash everybody, treated them like trash. And I
work with quite a few of them at BASF. Great workers. Clean people. So, it’s good and bad.
Even the Portuguese had bad apples.
G: Do you think, specifically the Portuguese American Civic League, has that changed over
time, or is it still pretty much as you remember it?
J: I think it has changed.
M: For the better, I think.
J: Well, you have to pay, and I don’t know. After we got married, I haven’t gone back. You
know, after a year.
G: You were less involved with it after you got married.
J: Yah. And then we got married. I never really went back. I stopped paying my dues. I
haven’t paid my dues for whatever years.
G: I meant to ask you. There was of course the Civic League, and then the Portuguese
American Center.
J: Correct.
G: Did you go to the Center much?
J: No, I was never a member there. I’d go there here and there, but never went. Later years,
not like, we were there, I was there last Thursday as a group of friends and all that.
28
�M: Yes. I think both clubs are doing well.
G: May I ask you, what do you see as, what’s the difference if you will between the Civic
League and the Portuguese American Center?
J: The difference? Like today, I’m not sure, because I don’t see them. Like I said, I don’t go
there much, but there’s no difference.
G: There’s no difference.
J: You go there to socialize with friends. Like the Center, every Friday night, they have dinners.
They have entertainment. The Civic League, they have it there too. They have buffets like on
Sunday.
M: Which before they didn’t have it.
J: I think I could be wrong on that.
G: That’s okay. I just wondered what your impressions are.
J: I could be wrong on that, but from what I see, like I say, from the outside, there was no
difference.
M: Before they never used to have functions there. Now they do.
G: Which? At the Center or?
M: Both, at both places, you know they’d have functions there, you know, weddings or
whatever.
J: If I may add to that, on those days there were not much functions. The only functions there
used to be (--)
M: No, now. I’m saying now.
J: Now they have things there, they rent. Like Holy Ghost they rent some things for functions
there.
M: Yah, where before they didn’t.
J: But you know, the bridal showers, and baby showers among the Portuguese people, they
would go to the hall, church hall on Central Street.
M: Yah, in those days, yes.
J: On those days.
G: Early in those days, yes.
J: Early in those days.
M: Yah, but now, not anymore.
J: There wasn’t much, but the club was there just to go play cards and shoot the breeze.
29
�M: If you want to go for lunch there, you know, like today, I think every day they serve lunch.
It’s like a restaurant.
J: I think both clubs have lunches every day.
M: You pick from the menu.
J: It has changed a lot from that. On those days we didn’t have that.
G: Right. Let me ask you about Saint Anthony’s Church. And how has that changed over the
years? First of all, I want to ask you about Father Eusebio. So, what were your impressions of
Father Eusebio?
J: He was a good man. We were friends for a long time, but as Father John [Silva] and me, he’s
human. So, he made a few mistakes that he was, he himself used to say that, and he was a
great speaker, but a lousy administrator.
G: Oh, I see.
J: He used to say that himself. And that’s true, but never had any problems and all that, but
you know, bookkeep and all that. And then over the years, actually the parishes are different
than it used to be in Portugal even today, because they have the secretary for this, they got this
and that. The maid. Everything is changed right now.
G: Yes, all of that is gone.
J: That’s all gone.
M: They don’t have a maid. They don’t have a secretary now.
J: I like Father Eusebio, and like I said, we’ll get more into that later on, but he was a good man.
Human, like I said. I’ll leave it at that.
G: And then I think it’s Father Ferreira then followed Father Eusebio.
J: Yes.
G: And what were your impressions of?
J: He was a very good man too. He was very good. He did a lot to operate the church through
the, you know.
M: Renovate?
G: Physical improvements?
J: Improvement inside the church, because then the Concílio, what do you say that?
M: The Counsel?
J: No, no, I’m talking about Rome, you know, the church, the Pope.
M: Vatican?
30
�J: Yah, Vatican Counsel? Back in the sixties they changed it.
G: Oh, Vatican II.
J: Vatican II. Thank you.
G: Changing from Latin to (--)
J: Yah, they change you know, the Sanctuary, everything was changed. It was supposed to be
like it is now. And Father Ferreira was here, he was the Pastor, and with his knowledge and his
things there, he did a great job.
G: Was he a good administrator as well?
J: He was a good administrator. As far as I know he was a good administrator.
M: Yes, he was. He was a good man.
J: But he did have others.
G: He had help.
J: He had help. Father John, and Father Eusebio, I’m trying to think. That’s going back a few
years. I know Father John had a lady there, but to take care of him, the parish, the cook, you
know.
M: The cook.
J: And even when Eusebio came here, I think he was pretty much alone at the rectory to do.
M: Who? Father Eusebio?
J: Father Eusebio. I don’t think they had secretary like that came on later on. They always
had, I hate to use the word, the maids.
M: Housekeeper.
G: Housekeeper, yes.
J: Housekeeper, right. Thank you. I don’t like that name. And then they went on, but I think
Father Eusebio, you know, and Father Ferreira, I’m trying to think back. Who did he have?
G: Do you remember in the 1970s when Cardinal Madeira was here in Lowell?
J: Yes.
G: Was that one of the big events at the church do you recall?
J: It was a big event. It was big, and then we went to Holy Ghost Park. I don’t remember. I
think I have pictures of that. I’m not sure. I think we had a big day, and of course, you know,
went to church. Was it a feast day? One of the feasts? It wasn’t a regular feast.
G: I think it was. I thought it was.
31
�J: It was Holy Ghost? Maybe it was Holy Ghost? I remember that, but like some of the things,
they’re recent, and some things I forget. But I believe on that album there’s pictures of us up
there. But I remember speaking with him, you know, and all that.
G: Yes. And I believe Father Glynn was the first non-Portuguese pastor.
J: Correct, yes.
M: Yes.
G: And did you see some changes with Father Glynn at St. Anthony’s?
J: Yes, there were some changes there, of course, but he was bilingual. He spoke Portuguese
pretty well.
G: I understand that he learned Portuguese.
M: Yes.
J: I think he went to São Miguel, I’m not sure, for a couple of years to learn.
G: I think you’re right.
J: I think it was São Miguel that he went.
M: São Miguel and not the mainland?
J: Not the mainland. He went there and he did, I think before he came here, he was in
Cambridge. But at the time there, and the things there, yah, I want to say something right and
a friend of ours, he knows.
G: Did Father Glynn give services in Portuguese or English, do you recall?
J: Portuguese.
G: Did he really?
M: He’s the one that married Debbie and Steve, right? Our daughter, but it was in English.
J: Yah, it was in English.
G: Oh, he married your daughter?
M: Yes, in Gloucester.
J: In Gloucester.
G: In Gloucester?
M: Yes, she wanted to be by the ocean.
G: At Our Lady of Good Voyage Church?
M: Yes, she wanted to be by the ocean.
32
�G: Nice.
J: We had to go there. Ask Father Glynn.
G: And Father Glynn?
J: Yah, he did the whole thing.
G: Very nice.
J: The thing that I remember, I’m trying to remember the changes as you asked.
G: Yes.
J: Of course, the Portuguese Community was changing pretty much with our off springs. Going
like from all Portuguese into English, which had to be done. Even today it’s not as much English
as it should be, because we are dying, and our kids, a lot of them speak Portuguese, but they’re
not, they’re Americans.
M: But they’re not involved.
J: English is their first language. And to go back to Father Glynn, he tried to introduce things
like in English. Like to bring the young in. And he had some resistance from people that we
were friends, good Catholics, good Christians, but they don’t want to see English in a
Portuguese Church. And it’s still hurting today.
M: The church is Portuguese. It should stay Portuguese.
J: Everything had to be Portuguese. He couldn’t bring English in there. You’re in America!
G: But you didn’t feel that way?
J: No. Me and other friends, sometimes we still talk about that. Because I mean our own two
children, you know, they’re fifty-one, fifty, whatever, the do speak Portuguese. When they
grow up, you know, for a few years, Portuguese was the only language here. They learned
English from Sesame Street. We didn’t teach them any English. But then, the long story on
that, then English come in once we’re all together, especially with our son-in-law Steve, he’s
American.
M: So, we speak English all the time.
J: It’s always English that we speak.
G: So, when you were raising your children, when they were very little, were you always
speaking Portuguese?
J: Always in our house.
M: Portuguese, and my mother used to mind them, and my mother didn’t know English. So,
she spoke Portuguese with them.
G: Wow.
33
�J: The first we spoke English with them.
G: With your children?
J: Yah, with our children, here in this house, I worked with this, we became friends, he was a
group leader, supervisor at BASF. And we were talking, and he came over here to do a family
room downstairs. It’s still there. It’s not the same like it was. I won’t take you there. It was
nice.
M: It’s a storage room now.
J: But anyway, he used to come here like most of the weekends, sometimes after work. He did
carpentry. He did everything. So, when it was pretty much done, you know, they have, I think
they’re still living, we haven’t seen them in years, two children, a boy and girl the same age as
ours. And at the time Harry and the little one, they were eight, ten years old, around at the
young age.
M: Yah, about that.
J: So, we had to speak English, because our friends and the family.
G: And that was the first time you spoke?
J: That was the first time we spoke English with our children in this house.
G: Wow, that’s interesting.
J: And then it started, and then they would speak English and we’d speak Portuguese back,
make sure.
M: But they can understand it. They can speak.
J: But they don’t want to. They don’t speak. They speak well. They speak okay. I’m not going
to say well, because they don’t speak well. I know other offsprings from friends of ours, they
speak Portuguese. Ours don’t that way. They, the truth is, they don’t speak Portuguese
correctly like they did as young kids.
G: Interesting.
J: It’s the truth.
M: But they understand.
G: I meant to ask you. So, you got married in ‘66.
J: Correct.
G: Where did you live initially?
J: On Whipple Street.
G: On, Whipple Street.
34
�J: Back Central.
M: Whipple Street, not far from where I used to live.
G: Okay. And were you renting the place there?
M: Yes.
J: We rented the place.
G: Was it a two-family, or a single family?
J: It was a two-family. We rented the first floor. And there’s like a garage underneath. It’s
there. The house is still there. And the owners lived on the second floor.
G: Okay. And then where did you live after that, after Whipple Street?
J: Here.
M: Over here.
G: And when did you buy this house?
M: 1969.
J: A year and a half after we got married.
G: Wow, pretty quick.
M: Oh yah, not ‘69. Yah, a year and a half after.
J: There’s a story about that too.
M: A year and a half, yes.
G: What’s the story?
J: Well, the story is, of course in those days we used to pay rent weekly. And every Saturday,
you know, Joe sometimes go to work and get the money, knock at the door. And one of them,
either the husband or the wife, mostly the husband would come down, give the receipt.
Everything was fine. So, one week Joe forgot to pay the rent. So, we went to church. After
church, you know, a man, his name was Sam, they had died years ago, he was at our door
waiting for us to come back. He wanted the rent. We knew it wasn’t him, it was his wife, but
hopefully they’re both in heaven. So, I didn’t like that, because we’re there a year and a half,
we paid, you know. A year and a half we didn’t have much money. That same Sunday I look in
the newspaper. We saw houses. We came here, we liked the house, and we bought it.
G: Interesting.
M: Seventeen dollars a week, right?
J: I forget the rent.
M: I think it was seventeen dollars a week.
35
�G: The rent was seventeen a week?
J: But the house was $17,500.
G: Was that for this house?
J: For this house.
G: Seventeen dollars a week then, that was not cheap.
M: No. In those days, no. But it was a nice house.
J: It was a beautiful house.
M: Nice apartment.
J: That I have no idea how much we paid. Maybe it wasn’t that much.
M: I think it was seventeen.
J: Okay, it doesn’t matter.
G: Anyway. So, Joseph, let me ask you about the Holy Ghost Society. And you told me some of
this when we met a few weeks ago, but how did you first get involved with the Holy Ghost
Society?
J: Well, Father Eusebio got me involved.
G: Oh, okay.
J: I was already a member and doing things at the church. Volunteering at the church.
Actually, I did run and I was the chairman of that big Feast, Our Lady of Loreto. Like I said, I was
involved with the church quite a bit, and I was at the clubs years earlier. But Holy Ghost in
those days, and the By Laws, they had a nominating committee. And today, long story. We
won’t go there. So, Father Eusebio, who was one of the people that the members asked me to
be on the nominating committee. So, they came over here, and he invited me.
G: To the house?
J: To the house here. We used to do that. You go knock at the door, a phone call, or whatever,
I don’t remember the exact, but he did come over here, and he would like me to be on the
board as vice president. I said, “Father Eusebio, vice president?” I was involved with the clubs,
and like I said, the church, but not an organization like Holy Ghost is. I said, “Father Eusebio, I
haven’t been on the board, this and that, but I know if the president fails for any reason, it’s the
vice president that takes hold.” “Oh Joe, Manny won’t do that. Manny is not going to do it.”
Because Manny was there for a long time.
G: This is Manny Correia.
J: Manny Correia. So, I was elected vice president in July.
G: What year was that?
36
�J: 1974.
G: You were elected vice president.
J: Vice president with the rest of the board, and Manny was president, because he was
repeating now two years.
G: It’s a two-year term, is that right?
J: Two-year term. It’s still the same work. So much. We’ll leave it alone. So, when we had our
first January meeting in September, so Joe was vice president for three months. I was involved,
like I said, in different things, but not like that. So, Manny and one of the board directors (--)
[Interview interrupted by phone].
G: All right. So, you were at this meeting.
J: We were at the general meeting. The first one of the new year, the new cycle.
G: Of the new year, September
J: It was September. Today it’s different. They changed the whole thing. So, this starts to
where I go back and forth, as of today, like so many years later, I think it was about the money
in the bank. But nobody was stealing. It was something, maybe a report was done wrong. And
they were going at each other, at each other, at each other. And then all of a sudden, they
were yelling at each other. Manny gets up so quick out of his chair. I’m next to him. He
reaches in his pocket a bunch of keys. He slams them to the table. “I know what I have.” So,
he ran out the door with his wife. I was, “Manny, please come back.” He never came back. So,
the next day I knocked at his door. He lived nearby here in Tewksbury.
G: Oh, did he?
M: On Whipple Road.
J: No too far from here. Manny, please come back. He never came back. So, I became
president.
G: So, you became the president.
J: Thanks to Father Eusebio.
G: By the way, at that time he was just assisting Father John Silva, correct?
J: I believe Father John was still here.
G: But he talked you into becoming the vice president?
J: I accepted, like I said, for that reason.
G: So, really when Father John Silva was the pastor, well there was sometime when you were
with Holy Ghost, that Father John Silva was. Was there a close relationship with the church?
37
�J: Yes, very close. Actually, I’ll say something nice about Father John. As earlier we said, he
was a human like I am. At one time I heard that from not really officially, that Cardinal Cushing
wanted to annex Holy Ghost with the church.
G: What did that mean by annexing?
J: He wanted to make, you know, Holy Ghost part of Saint Anthony’s. And the Holy Ghost is
independent. It’s a Catholic organization. We always worked very close. That’s the thing
today. That’s all gone too. I hate to say that, but in those days, yes. We were very close. And
Father John Silva told the board in those days, it’s before me, I wasn’t there, they said, “Don’t
do what Cardinal Cushing wants, because if you do that, you’re going to lose Holy Ghost
forever.”
G: Father John said this to the members?
J: To the members, to the Board of Directors there.
G: To the Board.
J: To the Board, he said that because the world, nobody knew. He knew better. Because when
the church puts the clause in, it’s mine.
G: Very interesting that Father John essentially went against the Cardinal, and said, “Don’t’ do
this.” Interesting. When you were president what were the major activities of the Holy Ghost?
J: Yah, different things and actually they’ll do so much, pretty much every weekend. The main
one, of course, like it is today, it’s to celebrate Pentecost, and to honor the Holy Spirit. And
since Queen Elizabeth, you know, she’s a saint, and she fed the poor. What we do today, it’s
different than what she did. We give to the poor, but it’s different. So, we are honoring the
Holy Spirit and Queen Saint Elizabeth. That’s what we do. And then that was the major thing
that we did. But, you know, the membership, of course, wasn’t enough, you know, to keep the
place up. We had Bingo every Tuesday night. I went there for the whole, you know, you had to
go there. I mean the directors; we were all involved there. That was one of the main things.
We’d have like a function here, like a dance, you know, something to (--)
M: Occasionally.
J: Yah, occasionally. It wasn’t really that many times. And actually, the Holy Ghost Feast in
those days, it was always on Sunday, but a lot of people would go up. Today everything is
different. You eat and then go home. And then we have, you know, festival the rest of the day.
And a lot of people come up, and the kitchen would be open. We’d make some money on that.
You know, we’d have band.
G: What were the other festivals was the Holy Ghost Society involved with? They might not
have run them, but they were involved events. Like Our Lady of Loreto.
J: Like Our Lady of Loreto, like we said earlier, it’s the church that does that. And the festivities
and everything related is done at the church, but then we go up there to dance, and the music,
and sing, and eat, and all that. But the proceeds are, that has changed too. But the proceeds
38
�go to the church, and the church always paid the fee to Holy Ghost. But on those days, because
it was a really non-profit organization, and through the years, you know, the Holy Ghost will
make donations to the church, you know, the money would go back and forth.
G: And so, but what were some of the other Festas?
M: Didn’t they do Saint Anthony’s Feast up there too?
J: Well, but it’s all church.
M: That’s what he’s asking.
G: No, no, but I was wondering. So, Saint Anthony’s Feast, that would also be.
M: For many years it used to be up there, Saint Anthony’s. And when I came here until a few
years, we used to have Our Lady of Fatima Feast.
G: I wondered about that. So that was also at (--)
M: At the end of July. And I believe we used to go up there too on weekends. The main three
feasts from the church.
G: Saint Anthony’s and then Pentecost, The Holy Ghost Festa.
J: No, Pentecost, it’s Holy Ghost.
M: It was Holy Ghost.
G: Holy Ghost.
J: We go to church, but it’s Holy Ghost.
G: Right.
M: Saint Anthony’s and Our Lady of Loreto, and I don’t recall if (--)
G: Our Lady of Fatima.
M: Fatima.
J: The three of them. Our Lady of Fatima, I don’t remember. It used to be a smaller feast, and I
don’t recall much there. Then it didn’t last long. It was a few years, then it got so small that (-).
M: I think it was just Our Lady of Loreto and Saint Anthony’s.
J: Right.
M: In those days.
G: Okay.
J: You want to find out how the Holy Ghost used to survive, right? That’s the question. What’s
the biggest things?
39
�G: Well, the other thing I was going to ask you though, for example, with the Holy Ghost Festa.
Were there a lot of similarities, how it was celebrated here in Lowell and the way it was
celebrated back in the Azores?
J: In my Ponta Garça, big difference.
G: What was the big difference?
J: Well, the big difference over here that make the big thing in a big community, and like back
in Ponta Garça, the other village or towns, and the other islands, I have no idea how they
celebrate. Actually, in my house, they used to celebrate and have like people that have the
crown, and they go. The kids got crown and all that. And most of the people, then they go to
their houses, and they invite their friends and all that. It’s not a public thing like they do over
here.
G: I see. Okay.
J: I think today some of them are doing something similar to here.
G: So, it was a more private kind of, yah.
J: It was a more private celebration.
G: But there was a procession though, right, at Ponta Garça?
J: They would do a procession. They go in procession to the church, and then back to their
home.
G: So that was similar.
J: That is similar to this way. It’s the dinner that could be, but the rest of the church services
exactly the same thing. But those there, like the procession, you know, the people that had the
crown, they invited their family and friends.
M: More private, not public.
J: And that’s it. Over here it’s public. All the processions are public.
M: It’s mostly all the members.
J: The church feast today, like is still today, in other church is public. So, when they have a
procession, even another town that wants to go, they go. There’s no invitations there. But the
Holy Ghost Feast, Pentecost, yes.
G: So, this is a funny thing too. I just remember from talking to Dimas Espinola about this, but
at some point, in Lowell, The Holy Ghost Society introduced the bull in part of the festival. Do
you remember the bull?
J: I remember the bull.
G: Was it just one bull?
40
�J: There’s a lot of bull about that. [Laughs]
G: Was there more than one bull, or was there just one bull?
M: I think it was one.
G: I thought it was just one, right?
J: I think it was just one, and to be honest, I didn’t go that much for the bull fighting.
G: Was there a bull fighting, or was it just?
J: No, no, it was just run the bull there in the park there.
G: But wasn’t the bull running down Central Street as part of the?
M: I don’t think it was Central Street.
J: No. Everything was at the park.
G: Oh, the bull was at the park.
J: The pull was at the park, and they had the rope. You know, they had an arena there. It’s
something like they do in Terceira.
M: Another tradition from back home, you know.
G: Was it from Terceira that that bull would have been?
J: Yah, it was from Terceira, and Dimas was born in Terceira. And I’m not sure. I don’t want to
say things that are not true, but I believe he’s the one who brought that bull fighting, the bull
run to Holy Ghost.
M: Running of the bull.
J: When he was president, I’m not sure of that. He’s the one who can answer that question.
That I don’t remember.
G: But it’s interesting that it was something that was from Terceira.
J: It is from Terceira.
G: That it’s imported, briefly, for a few years.
M: It’s a tradition.
J: Graciosa has some of that.
M: But mostly it’s Terceira.
J: And they had (--)
M: Running of the bull?
J: Well, that’s another on the streets.
41
�M: Yah, running of the bull.
J: But the arena. What do they call that? Yah, really bull fighting. Both islands have it, but
Terceira is much bigger.
M: Yah, it’s the bigger.
J: But they’re the ones that is out on the streets with the long robe. They have the guys, you
know, holding the bull and the whole thing.
G: I wanted to conclude with just asking you your view today of the Holy Ghost Society, and
even of the Portuguese in Lowell. So, what’s happening today with the Holy Ghost Society? Its
membership is older?
J: Is the what?
G: Is the membership generally older now at the Society?
J: Well, there’s a lot of us, you know, what we call vida membros, you know, life members.
G: Life members, yes.
J: Life members. There’s a lot of older people, and but it’s still, like we were talking to one of
the ex-directors. I think they still have around four hundred paid members. And the life
members, because I did become, the things that are up there, I did become a life member after
I became president. But we always donate something. But it’s this, but today because, you
know, the house is getting older and there’s a big project coming up, they have things going on
almost every weekend because they need that to raise the money. Those directors, they work
hard. They work hard almost every weekend. And sometimes they have Friday, Saturday, and
Sundays. All the people. People that rent every month, they go there.
G: This might not be an easy question to answer, but what do you think is the future of the
Holy Ghost Society?
J: I hate to put it this way, but I’m going to. If they don’t straighten up as of today what’s going
on up there, it will not last long. I hate to say it, but I want this to be, because things are not
good as of today.
G: Is it more financial, or is it also cultural?
J: No. It’s cultural. I think it’s greed of some of the board members. They don’t get along.
They want to show off. They want to be the, and it’s pretty bad.
M: Center for attraction.
J: Actually, two members of the board, it’s okay, I’m going to say that. Two members of the
board, they were presidents before, each serve one term, and they quit last week, the week
before, because of their clashing going on. I don’t want to mention any names because it’s not
right.
G: That’s okay. What was the clashing about?
42
�J: I think it’s something cultural like you said, but I think it’s, I don’t know, they want to do
better, but they don’t do it. If somebody suggest something they don’t accept it. It’s their way,
or no. Either their way or the highway. How does that go? One of those things like that.
G: Yes, my way or the highway.
J: My way or the highway, thank you. And I believe it. And unfortunately, they are all great
workers, but somehow, they’ve been hundreds that have quit already. The board that’s there
today, and it hurts. Because I’ve been involved with that for so many years, and when I see this
going down the hill. And of course, a lot of the young people, they don’t want to be involved in
that.
G: A lot of the young people don’t?
J: We still have a lot of young people there, which you know, and some of them immigrants,
but not too many. They’re all off springs. Why don’t they get along well? I don’t know why.
I’ve been told, like you said, culture. It doesn’t look good.
G: Well, this might not be uplifting either, but let me ask you about the future of Saint
Anthony’s Church. How has that changed in recent years?
J: It’s not going well either. It’s not going there. And I can be on record too.
G: Sure. What do you see, or what’s changed about Saint Anthony’s?
J: What changed about that, you know, of course through the years, you know, like every
church around the world, it’s been declining. Okay. And, of course, Covid did a terrible job
over the world. But our present day today we have, there’s two people. And Father Sannella, I
don’t mind going on record, he is our Pastor. But we have Deacon Carlos, he’s a one-man band
show there. He does everything. Seems like he doesn’t want anybody. There’s some things
here to do, he ask a few people to do this and that, but he does the whole thing by himself.
He’s running the parish by himself.
G: Do you think that’s by choice, or does he have no real option?
J: That I don’t know.
M: We have no idea.
J: Because I have a lot of respect for Father Sannella, and what I know of him personally, he is a
good person. We are good friends. We get along well. I just don’t know what’s going on, but
Deacon Carlos is pretty much by himself. Even to decorate the church, and in the recent few
months he painted the whole Sanctuary.
G: He did himself?
J: He did it himself. He had this father there. One time I went there with a friend of mine, you
know, Saint Vincent de Paul that I’m involved there. He is way on top of the thing by himself.
Oh, my father was here. He just went home for this and that. I mean, Jesus right there, and
43
�then he can break his fall, but he could break his neck. We were petrified. I saw that. I didn’t
even go there.
M: We just don’t know what’s going on.
J: So, I don’t like the future of our parish.
M: I think they should have like a secretary.
J: Because I believe when you live alone, you will die alone. And our parish, I hate to say it
again, our parish, my parish is dying, because not one man alone to run the whole parish. He
does all the rectory work. He has a couple of people during the week to do something in the
church.
M: Yah, on Thursdays he has a group of ladies to clean the church.
G: Has the number of communicants at Saint Anthony’s dropped?
J: Yes, it has been dropping.
M: Yes, it has dropped, yes, a lot.
J: But I don’t see much being done to bring people back. Like I said, I’ll repeat, Covid did a lot
of damage, but through the years we had another priest over here, you know, years ago.
G: Father Hughes?
J: Father Hughes, he did do a lot of damage to our parish. It’s no secret. It’s not a secret. He
did a lot. We still see some of it. Would you go back? Oh, I’m going here. I’m going there. I’m
okay there.
G: Did Father Hughes give the services in Portuguese, or was it always English?
M: English.
J: He did learn to read Portuguese. He did learn, but he would read the mass in Portuguese.
G: Oh, I see.
J: He learned a lot to read, but to make conversation, he didn’t know that well.
G: This is a small point. I just want to ask. I understand that there have been over the years a
small number of Brazilians at Saint Anthony’s, but never really any large number.
J: No. There’s a story about that. That’s one thing, one big mistake that Father Ferreira made.
When the Brazilians started to come to Lowell, they approached us. What we heard and it’s
pretty much true, they approached Father Ferreira, because they wanted their service to be in
our parish. But they wanted to have their masses separate from us.
G: Do you know why that was?
J: Right, but they’re Brazilians. They have their own culture.
44
�M: They wanted to have their own identity.
G: Interesting.
J: Like we are Portuguese, we want our identity. They wanted that, and Father Ferreira denied
them that.
M: It’s the same language.
G: Father Ferreira wouldn’t do it.
J: He wouldn’t do it. So, they went to Sacred Heart. And then there’s another story about that,
with some of our parishioners. When Sacred Heart was dying, and I think it was Father Glynn at
the helm at the time, the parishioners were supposed to come to our church, you know, the
“Americans”, and the Brazilians were there. And everybody was coming. But they had a big
meeting. Everything was planned. We’re going to have a big procession from there to here.
And they had a big thing there. I don’t know the whole thing, but I’ve heard, and some of our
members, they did so much, they didn’t want any people, other churches to join us. They were
Portuguese. And some of them, were American-born, Portuguese descent.
M: I was for it.
J: Great workers for the church. So, when Sacred Heart parishioners heard that, they wanted
nothing to do with Saint Anthony’s.
G: I see. They didn’t feel welcomed.
J: Correct, they didn’t feel welcomed. So that’s when they came over here to Saint Marie’s,
Holy Family.
M: Saint Marie’s now. They were welcomed there.
G: Interesting. So, that was a kind of a watershed moment.
J: Yes, it devastated our parish. Had they come to us we’d be sitting on gold.
G: Do you remember when that was roughly?
J: I don’t remember the year.
G: It was the late ‘90s though, wasn’t it?
M: Yah, probably. I think so.
J: It could have been. It’s been a few years.
G: I don’t think anybody has ever written about that.
J: I don’t think it was much publicized. There was a friend of ours, like I said, some of the things
he (--)
G: Because I thought Father Glynn had an assistant who was Brazilian. That’s what I recall
meeting this fellow who was from Brazil.
45
�J: We have had, you know, a few assistants from Brazil, and I think even Father Hughes did. He
had a few of them.
G: Oh, Father Hughes too?
J: I think the first one, Father Pedro was there for a while.
M: Oh yah, Father Pedro.
J: He wasn’t with Father Glynn? Like I said, Tony would know all these things.
G: Okay. Was Father Pedro with, was that with Father Glynn?
J: He was here. He was assistant to our Parish. And the Brazilians were not with us. It could
have been, like I said. But even though Father Glynn spoke Portuguese, but I don’t know if it
was Father Pedro. Like I said, there’s things like I told you before. Tony would know all these
things.
G: Let me conclude. Thank you all very much. This is very wonderful. Thank you. I wanted to
ask you just about one specific thing relating to the Portuguese in Back Central, and the Prince
Pasta Plant. And because I first met Father Glynn at this time. I first came to Lowell. And the
Prince Pasta workers were on strike.
J: Right.
G: But part from the strike then, the corporation that bought the plant shut it down. And so,
Father Glynn was very active in trying to drum up community support. And by the way, then
Congressman Meehan, and Senator Kennedy, really, they actually came to Lowell and rallied on
behalf of the workers, and many of them were Portuguese. I just wondered if you remembered
any of that?
J: I don’t.
M: I don’t remember.
J: I read about that a lot, but as being there, as a matter of fact, you know, the University of
Lowell had something down there at the mills at downtown, Foot of John Street.
M: Market Mills? Not Market Mills.
G: No, the Boott Mills.
M: Boott Mills.
J: Boott Mills, thank you. That you know, Martha’s mother, mother-in-law, she was (--)
Remember there was a session at the Boott Mills, and she spoke, your sister spoke? She was
very much involved on that in there. And I heard things there. And I was there, you know, we
used to go together. Where was I?
G: Well, I don’t know.
J: I ask that, where was I? I don’t remember any of this.
46
�G: Okay.
J: I remember reading things on the paper, the whole thing, but there’s things on my life that is
blanked.
M: I don’t remember.
G: Because the one person that I met who was a Prince Pasta worker and was with the union,
was Nomesia Iria.
M: That’s the one.
J: That’s the one, the lady.
M: That’s Hugh’s mother-in-law. That’s the Rodriques’mother-in-law.
G: Oh really! Wow, I didn’t know that.
J: Were you at that presentation at the Boott Mills?
G: I was. I was part of that too.
M: Oh really?
J: And she was there.
G: Well, you know something, I hadn’t seen her in about twelve years, and that was the first. I
was wonderful to see her again. She vaguely remembered me.
J: So, you knew her from that night?
G: In 1997, 1998. She was remarkable I have to say.
J: She was, you know. She spoke there. We knew her already in the family and all that through
friends, and the daughter. And when she started speaking, I said, “Whoa! Good for you.” I was
proud of her.
G: Wasn’t that impressive though?
M: Yes.
J: It was! I was so proud of her.
G: She was wonderful.
J: I was there, and you were there. Wow.
G: I was too. I’m sorry we didn’t meet.
M: Yes, I know. There were so many people. It’s hard to know everybody.
J: Yah, you were involved with the university for a while.
G: Well, thank you very much.
47
�M: Oh, you are welcome.
Interview ends.
48
�
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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UMass Lowell Portuguese American Oral Histories [1985-2018]
Description
An account of the resource
These oral histories with Portuguese immigrants and their descendants in the Greater Lowell area were conducted between 1985-2016. Topics covered include the experience of immigration, working conditions, family life, and more. These oral histories were funded by the Lowell National Historical Park, the American Folklife Center, and UMass Lowell.
Subject
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Azorean Americans
Children of immigrants
Cultural assimilation
Mills and mill-work
Portuguese American women
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PDF
Language
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English
Type
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Document
Source
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All items can be found at the Center for Lowell History in Lowell, MA.
Publisher
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UMass Lowell, Center for Lowell History
Rights
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In Copyright - Educational Use Permitted: This Item is protected by copyright and/or related rights. You are free to use this Item in any way that is permitted by the copyright and related rights legislation that applies to your use. In addition, no permission is required from the rights-holder(s) for educational uses. For other uses, you need to obtain permission from the rights-holder(s).
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1985-2018
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Maria and Joseph Mendonça Oral History Interview
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2023-02-03
Description
An account of the resource
This interview focuses on several major themes: (1) Portuguese immigration from the Azores to Lowell, as part of the “second great wave” of Portuguese immigration to the United States, beginning in the late 1950s; (2) experiencing the Capelhinos volcanic eruption on the island of Faial, beginning in 1957; (3) adjusting to life in the United States, notably in public schools prior to the advent of bilingual education; (4) Portuguese institutions in Lowell notably St. Anthony’s Roman Catholic Church and the Holy Ghost Society, as well as in the city’s Portuguese social clubs.<br /><br /><strong>Biographical Note:</strong><br />Maria Rosa was born on the Azorean Island of Faial in 1945. She was one of four children (two brothers and a sister) and grew up in the village of Flamengos, a short distance from Horta, in a four-room house constructed of stone. Her father operated a small farm. She attended the public school in the village completing her education through grade 4. In 1957, when Maria was 12 years old, the Capelhinos volcano on Faial erupted, an event that altered the lives of many Azoreans. In the United States, Congress passed special legislation liberalizing immigration for all Azoreans.<br />Aided by a Portuguese family in Lowell, which sponsored Maria and her family, the Rosas departed Faial in 1960, arriving in Boston and then traveling to Lowell, where she, her parents, and her siblings settled in the city’s “Back Central” neighborhood. Maria entered the Lowell public schools, attending the Colburn School in her neighborhood. Despite the difficulties with having to learn English without any formal support by the public schools, Maria completed her studies at the Colburn and then at the Butler Junior High School. At the age of 16 she received a work permit and obtained a job at the Hathaway Shirt Company that operated a clothing manufacturing firm in the old Hamilton Mill. She met her husband, Joseph Mendonça, in Lowell and married him in 1966. Maria subsequently worked at the Raytheon Corporation and had a son and daughter.<br /><br />Born in 1942 in Ponta Garça on the island of São Miguel, Joseph Mendonça moved to the United States at the age of 15, settling in Lowell with his family. His father had been born in Fall River, Massachusetts, in 1905 and therefore had U.S. citizenship, despite returning to São Miguel when he was quite young. Joseph attended a public school in Ponta Garça before entering high school in Ponta Delgada. Upon moving to Lowell, he was placed in the Butler Junior High School, but when he turned 16 he received a work permit and entered the employ of Grace Shoe Company, one a several shoe manufacturers in the city. For a number of years, Joseph worked in the shoe industry, while marrying Maria and beginning a family. He eventually attained a high school degree and began work at BASF Industries. Joseph and Maria were active parishioners at St. Anthony’s Church in Lowell as well as in the Holy Ghost Society. Joseph served as president of the Holy Ghost Society in the 1970s. They lived for a number of years in Lowell’s Back Central neighborhood before purchasing a house in South Lowell.
Creator
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Fitzsimons, Gray
Subject
The topic of the resource
Azorean Americans
Brazilian Americans
Bullying in schools
Bullfights
Catholic Church--Dioceses
Catholic Church--Societies, etc.
Children of immigrants
Code switching (Linguistics)
Conflict of generations
Earthquakes
Ethnic neighborhoods
Evening and continuation schools
Factories
Immigrants--Cultural Assimilation--United States
Portuguese American women
Priests
Volcanos
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Lowell (Mass.)
Faial (Azores)
São Miguel (Azores)
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Interview conducted through the Saab Center for Portuguese Studies at the University of Massachusetts Lowell.
Publisher
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UMass Lowell, Center for Lowell History
Contributor
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Mendonça, Maria
Mendonça, Joseph
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copyright - Educational Use Permitted: This Item is protected by copyright and/or related rights. You are free to use this Item in any way that is permitted by the copyright and related rights legislation that applies to your use. In addition, no permission is required from the rights-holder(s) for educational uses. For other uses, you need to obtain permission from the rights-holder(s).
Format
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JPEG
MP3
PDF
Language
A language of the resource
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Audio
Image
Text
Grace Shoe Factory
Hathaway Shirts
Holy Ghost Society (Lowell, MA)
Portuguese American Center (Lowell, M.A.)
Portuguese American Civic League (Lowell, M.A.)
Saint Anthony's Church (Lowell, MA)
Simon Shoe
-
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06df09cc063a9b72cae41b6d72124142
PDF Text
Text
UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
SAAB CENTER FOR PORTUGUESE STUDIES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT
INTERVIEWEE: BARBARA DUNSFORD
INTERVIEWER: GRAY FITZSIMONS
DATE: APRIL 24, 2023
B=BARBARA
G=GRAY
Biographical Sketch:
One of four siblings, Barbara Dunsford was born in Lowell and grew up in the city’s Highlands
neighborhood. Her father was a public school teacher at the city’s vocational school and her
mother was a homemaker until she entered the workforce in the 1960s. Barbara’s mother,
Sophie Anne (Gancarz) Dunsford (1918-2006), was born in Lowell and her parents were Polish
immigrants. Her father, Harold Bevan Dunsford, Jr. (1918-1973), was also born in Lowell, but of
English (Yorkshire) descent. Barbara and her siblings attended St. Casimir’s Polish National
Church in the Centreville neighborhood. All four siblings were educated in Lowell’s public
schools and received college degrees. Barbara studied psychology, graduating from Lowell State
College in 1973. She worked for a short time at a garden center before obtaining a position with
a statistical consulting firm that studied employment, education, and public health issues.
Around 1981, she was hired as director of the Portuguese American Resource Center, a
program of the Lowell Union of Portuguese Americans (LUPA)
Founded in 1977 and located in Lowell’s Back Central section, which was the city’s major
Portuguese neighborhood, LUPA provided social services to the area’s Portuguese residents. A
large number of Portuguese immigrants, primarily from the Azores, settled in Lowell beginning
in the 1960s and into the early 1980s. The Resource Center offered a number of services and
programs to aid this growing immigrant population. As director, Barbara coordinated some of
these activities with the International Institute of Lowell, a long-time immigrant aid
organization. She also wrote a number of grants, including one that led to an extensive
photographic documentation project, carried out by local professional photographer Kevin
Harkins, of the Back Central neighborhood and its residents, as well as in the various factories
where many Portuguese were employed. After federal funds supporting the Resource Center
were expended, Barbara worked as a director of “Annual Giving” at the University of
Massachusetts Lowell. She remains active today as a consultant to a number of non-profit
organizations in Lowell.
Scope and Contents:
1
�This interview is divided into two parts. The first part includes a brief family history of Barbara
Dunsford and covers her years growing up in post-World War II Lowell, her education in the
city’s public schools, her university studies, and her early work experiences. The second part
focuses on her work at the Portuguese American Resource Center (PARC) in Lowell that was a
program, funded by through the City of Lowell via the federal Comprehensive Employment and
Training Act. PARC was a key program operated under the aegis of the Lowell Union of
Portuguese Americans (LUPA), which was founded in 1977 to provide social services to the
city’s growing Portuguese immigrant community. This part of the interview highlights the role
of PARC within Lowell’s Portuguese community and it also covers some institutional
background information on LUPA.
G: It is Monday, April 24th. I’m here with Barbara Dunsford at the Massachusetts Alliance of
Portuguese Speakers, the predecessor of the main topic today, which is the Lowell Union of
Portuguese Americans. Barbara, thank you for agreeing to be interviewed.
B: My pleasure.
G: Let me start with some general family personal background questions. First of all, when
were you, and where were you born?
B: I’m a tried, and true Lowellian. I’ve been born in Lowell. I came through the Lowell [public]
school system, and through the university [Lowell State College; by 1991 University of
Massachusetts Lowell]. So, I’m very proud of my city, and I’m really happy to be here today to
share my information about LUPA with you. My dad was a teacher, and my mom was a
housekeeper up until the time we were in middle school, and then she went to work. I have
three siblings, and all of us went through the Lowell school system as well, as we went on to
higher education. It was my dad’s and my mother’s tenet that you can do anything you want,
but you needed to graduate from college. So, we all have good degrees. We all had good jobs
growing up. We were a basic traditional middle-class family.
G: And what year were you born?
B: I’m not sure we need to talk about what year I was born. I think I’ll pass on that question.
G: Okay. But when were you in, for example, elementary school and grammar, and high
school?
B: I was in [grammar school] in the late 50s and in the early 60s into high school. And then off
to college in the early 70s. I was involved in the community through my mom. She was a
volunteer, not just at the school with the PTOs, but also with the church. She sort of laid the
[occupational] groundwork for me. She would collect for the American Heart and American
Cancer societies. And in those days, you went door, to door, to door with an envelope, and the
people gave you their change, maybe a dollar. And you would go up and down the streets. I
2
�would follow my mom as a young person, be involved, [and observe] how outgoing she was and
how engaging she was. And she was a good fundraiser, which I think laid the groundwork for
me as my whole career has been in philanthropy and development, and fundraising. And I
think that’s where it started. It was easy for my mom back then. I find that this profession is
not only rewarding, but I feel people have the connections with organizations, and they give
from their heart. And it’s made my professional career easy.
G: And how far back does your family go in Lowell?
B: My family goes back in Lowell, my mother’s parents were from Poland. They were the first
generation here. And they lived in a cold-water flat off of Coburn Street, Roosevelt Place, for all
their years. My grandfather I did not know. He died when my mother and her sisters were
young. And so, my grandmother was actually a single mother, bringing up four girls. She
worked in the mills. My mother and her sisters [told] the story that they would scavenge for
bottles, empty bottles. And the clear ones didn’t get you many pennies, but the colored ones,
the greens, and the browns, got you more money, because they would give it to a person who
was making bootleg. Those were good stories. My mom was in the Flood of 1936. And she
lived on the second floor, a three-family on Coburn Street, and the water went up to the
second floor, and had to be evacuated.
My paternal great-grandparents came here from England. And my grandparents lived in South
Lowell off of Moore Street. We [often] visited one grandparent in the morning after church on
Sunday, and then go visit the other grandparents after lunch. We had a really good family
upbringing. My father was Protestant. My mother was Catholic. And in those days that was a
little bit taboo. We were basically brought up Catholic. I don’t think I ever saw my father step
in the church.
G: What is your mother’s maiden name, the Polish name?
B: My mother’s maiden name was Gancarz, gang cars in English.
G: How do you spell it?
B: G A N C A R Z, and her mother was a Swiderski. And I’m really good at pronouncing Polish
names and spelling them for sure.
G: Very good. Coburn Street in Centralville? Is that correct?
B: Coburn Street in Centralville. It’s off of Lakeview Avenue and Hildreth Street. Right, really in
the center of, at that time, the Polish community.
G: Yes, right.
3
�B: Right. We walked to Polish School on Saturdays. We would be dropped off in the morning.
And at noontime we would walk a block or two around the corner to my grandmother’s house.
Then we would walk downtown, over the Bridge Street bridge, to get the bus to come back to
the Highlands where we lived. Good memories.
G: What church did you attend?
B: We went to the Saint Casimir’s Polish National Church, which was a little bit different than
the regular Catholic Church. They were more aligned with the Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox,
and that their priests could marry. So, there was always a controversy there. And the reason
that we were in that church is because when my grandmother went to the other church.
G: Which other church?
B: Was it Holy Trinity?
G: It probably was.
B: Up on High Street I think it was?
G: That’s Holy Trinity, yes.
B: That’s Holy Trinity, to get her children Baptized. And at the time they were older, because at
the time she couldn’t afford it, they again, were charging her an amount she could not afford.
So, she left there, and she went to the other church, and they did not charge her for the
baptismal, and had my aunts, my grandmother had four daughters, had my aunts all baptized
there. That’s why we ended up at St. Casimir’s. A wonderful community church. Good, good
memories.
G: Very interesting. What was your grandmother’s occupation after she became a widow?
B: She worked in the mills. She was a stitcher and she would take some discarded remnants
home and make dish towels and embroider the edges with them, and sell them for probably,
very little money, just to kind of make ends meet. My aunt, the third oldest, was actually sent
to Worcester to live with an aunt, because my grandmother could not afford the four girls in
the house. So, she was sent [to Worcester]. And I think the only reason, well I know that this is
the reason, is because she was quite plump. Evidently that aunt was not very nice. And my
Aunt Helen would have to get up in the morning before she went to school and do chores. It
was a very difficult situation. I think she was there for almost one year. And the reason that
she came home is that her father had passed away. Basically, my grandmother was getting
messages that if she stayed there, she was just going to be more abused, because she was little.
She was little at that time. I think she could have been maybe eight or nine.
4
�G: So, your mother’s side of the family was Polish working-class. Your father’s side, the
Dunsfords, how would you characterize them?
B: They were working class also. My grandfather had a painting and contracting business. And
I actually found recently a picture of his old truck, and it made me laugh, because my father was
a junior. And so, to see my father’s name on a truck, which belonged to his father, made me
feel really good. My grandmother, my nana, she did not work. And my father had three sisters.
He was the only boy. I think he was treated probably like a prince. And my mother had three
sisters. So, four girls on my mother’s side, and three girls and my dad on my dad’s side.
G: So, growing up in Lowell in the 1960s and 70s; did you meet many Portuguese people?
B: I would say in the 60s and 70s, in probably elementary and middle school I would not have
known if they were Portuguese or not. When we all came from different neighborhoods in
Lowell to go to Lowell High School, that’s when we had this sort of blend, this mix, or this kind
of quilt of the makeup of what the City of Lowell looked like. And that’s when I met people
who may have been [named] Barros, or they could have been Gonzales, or names like that.
And then knowing, having always been a bit attuned to last names, I knew that they were
Portuguese.
G: So, what school did you go to in elementary school in Lowell?
B: I started off at the Pine Street School on Pine Street. And then went to the Morey, and then
went to the Daley, and then Lowell High School.
G: Okay. So, you graduated from Lowell High School, and then you went to college?
B: Yes, the university.
G: Of?
B: Of Lowell.
G: The University of Lowell.
B: Right. It was right down the street; easy to walk to. At the time I was a very good, my
sisters and I, we were always very good students. But I didn’t know what I wanted to do when I
grew up. I was having much better time being a social butterfly and engager. I went to school,
to college, as a biology major. And I think that came from my father wanting me to be a
veterinarian. And I figured, well this is the first step towards something such as that. But after
a year, it was a very difficult program, and I went into a psychology program, which I think was
really good for me at the time. I didn’t want to be a nurse. I didn’t want to be a teacher. I
didn’t want to be those traditional female roles. And this particular program gave me the
5
�opportunity to open up and see different venues of where I would like to spend my time and
my profession.
G: What year did you graduate from ULowell?
B: I graduated from ULowell in 1973, and then I went back and got a Masters in 1978. And
then I started another Masters’ Program, a Business Administration Program shortly after that.
But at that point I had been, and I felt that was enough school, and my profession was on a
trajectory. So, I didn’t really need all these letters at the end of my name.
G: Upon graduating ULowell, what did you do? Did you stay in school then, or did you actually
get a job working?
B: No, I ended up getting a job, but not in my profession. I worked at a garden center for a
while full-time. And then I finally ended up making that connection somehow with an
occupation to work in the community. I’m looking back here, and this is interesting on my
resume, because I did a psychological educational testing of learning-disabled children in the
Lowell School System in 1976. I vaguely remember that. I think was my first real job, as I said,
on the trajectory to coming to be a professional fundraiser at this point.
G: So, that was with the Lowell Public School System?
B: I don’t know. This looks like it came out of the University of Connecticut at Storrs. So, I’m
not sure. It did say, “Lowell School Systems.” So somehow, I had to make that connection, but
I vaguely remember that. It may have been short-lived.
G: So, let’s talk about the way you came to work with the folks who organized LUPA, the Lowell
Union of Portuguese Americans. But you were saying though, it had a different name.
B: Yes. I just found a resume from yesteryear, and it says I was Director of Portuguese
American Resource Center in Lowell. When I saw that I remembered the acronym was PARC.
And I was like, oh, yes, yes. We called it PARC. It was a program that was CETA funded. CETA at
that time was the Comprehensive Employment and Training Act. And it came through under Ed
Trudel who worked at the [City of Lowell] Department of Planning and Development, and it
came under his management. I think when LUPA applied for this money, they may have
changed the name of what this center was going to be, maybe make the distinction of them
being the governing group LUPA, and the Association of Portuguese Americans, and this being
the resource center, which was kind of an information and referral agency.
G: l see. So, LUPA was kind of the umbrella, and PARC was one of the major parts of what they
did.
B: Correct, but I researched Portuguese American Resource Center, nothing came up. So, it
could have been short-lived just with the funding from the CETA Program.
6
�G: I see. Okay. Do you know, by the way, there was precedence for LUPA in Somerville, and
Cambridge. As far as your early involvement with LUPA, did those two organizations ever come
up?
B: They came up because they were large Portuguese community agencies. I don’t believe we
had, as this Portuguese American Resource Center, we had much connection with them. I may
have, just as my nature, may have called and asked about their programs, but I don’t remember
ever going to Fall River, or going to Somerville to visit with these organizations. But at the time
those were two large cities that had, I think, larger Portuguese Communities than Lowell. So, I
think LUPA probably may have been more connected with those agencies, and general sharing
of information than I was as director of this program.
G: So, I’d like to talk a little bit about who were the major organizers in Lowell of LUPA?
B: Okay, what I remember is that it was their board. At the time there was a gentleman, Joao
DaSilva, who was the Board President. And Duarte Bettencourt, Alda Rocha, Clarinda Adelino
[Clarinda M. (Mendonça) Adelino, b. Graciosa, Azores in 1922; to U.S. in early 1970s; d. in
Lowell in 2007], and Paul [Paulo] Godinho were board members that I remember. There were a
couple of other board members. Their names didn’t come to be. These were the individuals
that I worked with directly. João DaSilva was the President. And Duarte Bettencourt eventually
became the President. And then Alda Rocha, Clarinda, and Paul were always in the office,
because that was where LUPA ended up having their board meetings.
G: So, do you know, did the organizers coming up with the idea to create LUPA, what were
some of the key ideas, and what were the services they thought that were needed?
B: I don’t know exactly what they went to the CETA Program with, but remember, it was going
to be a Social Service Program. There was a large Portuguese community in Lowell, mainly from
the Azores. They all lived in the Back Central Neighborhood. Their church Saint Anthony’s was
here. Their clubs were here. Their bakeries, their businesses, etcetera, and so forth. So, we
were charged with opening up a center. Now they call it wrap around services in some of the
non-profits. And that was to assist people with reading documents, translating documents,
getting them to appointments, doctors, to legal whatever, reaching out to other agencies in the
cities, like a CTI to maybe help with assistance one way or the other. Connecting, I know many
times, with the International Institute [International Institute of Lowell] and Mrs. Deolinda
Mello, who was [Executive Director] up there, to help facilitate getting over some of the
barriers that these individuals faced as they came to Lowell. And some who had been living
here for a while, [with] problems that may have happened in the workplace, that they didn’t
know how to access Human Resources, or access services to assist them with their problems.
We [LUPA] transported people to appointments. We talked to some of the individuals that
they may have needed assistance with their issues again. And we were just, I think we were
just an open door. If you came in with anything we were there to help you. Now the people
7
�who I worked with, they had no social service background. Their main reason for being hired
was they could speak Portuguese.
I was sort of the conduit to, say if João came in with something, and he needed to get in touch
with the International Institute, I would say, okay, here are the steps. Call Mrs. Mello. Set up
an appointment. Bring them if they didn’t have transportation, bring them there. It was very
organic. There were a couple of incidences where there was a workplace incident where
someone was very sick. And the inquiry was about, could that person have picked up this
illness from the workplace. And of course, that was way beyond our, sort of scope of
experience.
G: Yes, Occupational Health and Safety.
B: We didn’t even know OSHA; that wasn’t even a word I think we used back then, but we
knew that something was wrong. So, what we would have likely have done, and I don’t
remember specifically, is to connect them with a lawyer. And usually, of course, we connected
to a Portuguese-speaking lawyer, or a Portuguese-speaking doctor, or someone who could
easily facilitate the barriers that some of these individuals faced.
G: I see. So, you say again, wrap around social agency, which is interesting.
B: Yes.
G: Because the International Institute was doing similar kind of activities with all kinds of
immigrants.
B: Absolutely.
G: So, it’s kind of interesting. I gather too that, you might know this, but beginning in the early
sixties really, there was a second great wave of Portuguese immigrants into Lowell. Not just
Lowell, but New England. But Lowell was generally losing population during this time, except
the Portuguese were the largest growing population, mostly from the Azores as you noted. So,
you were probably working mostly with this new generation of Portuguese, correct?
B: I would think so. At times as we know with all immigrants and refugees, we would have the
children come in and they would translate for their parent, or for the person that they were
with. And of course, the child, and we were trying to give them information, may not have had
the educational experience yet to be able to understand some of the things we were talking
about. It was a challenge, but I do remember that most of the people that we dealt with were
from the Azores, the different islands in the Azores.
G: And did they tend to be younger adults and children? In other words, they weren’t from
that earlier generation of immigrants.
8
�B: We had all ages. I mean we didn’t have children. We may have had the, as I said, the teens
may have come in to translate for their parents, but we had probably individuals who were
anywhere from the ages of twenty up to seventy plus.
G: Okay.
B: So, we did get older grandparents, senior type individuals in.
G: And how closely did you personally work with the International Institute for various, serving
various people, various Portuguese? Were you working very closely with the International
Institute?
B: We had a relationship with them in that when we were dealing with immigration situations,
or something that was a little bit out of our wheelhouse, we would connect with them. The
International Institute in those days was busy. And there were other individuals, I can’t
remember their names, but there were other individuals who kind of brokered some of these
situations that they may not have gone directly to the Institute and to Mrs. Mello. There may
have been others that were “in the community”, who did this type of work. And we were
always a little bit concerned because we didn’t know what these individuals’ backgrounds may
have been. And we would hear from clients, information, positive, negative, whatever. So, we
liked to stick with the International Institute, and not get, so and so involved, because we
weren’t sure what was happening in terms of money being exchanged. The Institute was free I
believe, but with these other individuals, we didn’t know if there was any money crossing
during the transactions.
G: I see. And how closely did LUPA and you work with the city?
B: I think except for the city being our payor because I believe that the CETA money came
through the city, we didn’t have much connection. We were this sort of brand new, as I said,
Information and Referral Social Service Center up on Back Central Street doing our own thing,
doing it quietly, serving the people, as I said, who came through the door as best we possibly
can. So, we were busy. And this was brand new. And although I had a background, a little bit
of a background in social services, dealing with a population that I couldn’t understand, and
then having to find what is the best resource for them to help them resolve their issue, was
challenging. And the people I worked with were great. They were hard working. We had a
great team in that day, and we were busy. If we weren’t working with people coming through
the door, we were looking at resources where we could refer them to. It was great.
G: So, let me ask you, how were you selected? And was your title initially Director?
B: It was.
G: And how were you selected?
9
�B: I don’t remember.
G: Do you remember being interviewed?
B: I don’t remember. It was one of those things that as I found this older resume, and I looked
where I went from one job to the next, I’m thinking how did I get there? What was it? Where
did I go to end up getting there. That’s a blank. But my job also was hiring the individuals, and
again, the number one qualification was that they could speak Portuguese, and that they were
friendly and opened to what was ever going to happen when that door opened. And a great
team.
G: You mentioned Ed Trudel with the City of Lowell.
B: Yes.
G: As kind of the overseer of the CETA Funding. Did you have much involvement in the original
proposal to create this?
B: No, I did not. My role was to keep finances in line to submit them to Ed. So, some of the
vendors that we may have been working with could get paid. That was very simple back then. I
mean, you just walked down to his office and give him, a bill, an invoice, and individuals would
get paid. He was a great man to work with, because he was opened to this new idea of this
center on Back Central Street. So, I and the team at the time just did what we felt was the right
thing to do.
G: So, the city, mainly Ed Trudel, was essentially the fiscal agent.
B: Yes.
G: I see. Again, you mentioned some of the board members. What generation were they
from? Joao, and some of the others, were they say in the thirties, or older?
B: I would say that at the time they were in their late twenties, early thirties.
G: Oh, so a fairly young group.
B: Yes, because they were young they were energetic, and they were excited about this. And
they were fully committed, and whenever you needed something. And they also at times were
resources. So, we didn’t get directly involved with the church. We didn’t get directly involved
with the clubs, but they were our conduit if we needed something. If we had to, whether it was
setting up a funeral, or whatever, and going through Father Eusebio Silva [pastor at St.
Anthony’s Roman Catholic Church] at the time, they would be somebody that we would kind of
reach out to. So, they were actively involved.
10
�G: By the way, I meant to ask you, what year was LUPA launched?
B: I want to say that LUPA was launched in 1981.
G: Okay.
B: Excuse me, the Portuguese American Resource Center, where I worked, [was established] in
1981. LUPA, I don’t remember, because these individuals that I mentioned before, the board
members, seemed to have been involved for a while with the Portuguese community, but I
don’t know in terms of LUPA. That would be a question for one of them if they can remember.
[Note: LUPA was formed in 1977; its founders and board members are noted by Barbara
elsewhere in this interview.]
G: So, LUPA would have existed before the Portuguese American Resource Center?
B: Absolutely. They were the non-profit agency. They were the entity that applied for this
CETA money. I don’t know how and when, but as I said, it was a very positive work experience
for me and for the team we had. Great memories of working on Back Central Street, and truly
getting to know the community firsthand.
G: I want to ask you a little bit about your memories of Back Central at that time. Where were
you living when you were directing?
B: I lived up in the Highlands, Upper Highlands at the time. So, Back Central Street was not a
place where I went. There was nothing that brought me there.
G: To Back Central.
B: To Back Central Street. So, it was an interesting neighborhood to be involved with. My prior
jobs that I had didn’t have me working in a segment of the community such as with the LUPA
Program. And it was just wonderful. Just like today, walking into MAPS [Massachusetts
Alliance of Portuguese Speakers], very pleasant, kind, welcoming individuals no matter where
we went and what we did. And I just remember it was so different than the neighborhood I
lived in, which was more eclectic in nature in terms of backgrounds, ethnic backgrounds of
people. This was like this concentrated group of individuals. So, you would see boats in the
back, big boats, fishing boats in the back yard. You would see grapevines beautifully arched.
Gardens. Definitely a lot of “Madonna in the bathtubs.” And it was just a sense of safety and
security, and everyone seemed to know everyone else, and looked out for everyone else. It
was a wonderful experience.
G: Do you remember some of the processions from Saint Anthony’s Church for some of the
holidays?
11
�B: I did not. I don’t remember them. I did not participate in them, but I remember that they
were, whether it was the celebrations out at Holy Ghost Park, or the processions to and from
the church, that the community was well involved in those. They took pride in these. They
were sometimes managed, by I think, some of the clubs, or [possibly] some of their ad hoc
committees. They were always really, well attended, beautiful, gorgeous clothes. Everyone
took pride in their community and their background, and these particular holidays and
celebrations.
G: Did you have much interaction with Father Eusebio Silva?
B: I did not. I knew him just because I worked up the street from him. And I knew he was the
priest there. I didn’t have much interaction, but we knew each other just because of the
proximity and what I was doing for the community.
G: Were there any other, apart from the board members, were there any other neighborhood
residents in Back Central that you remember particularly?
B: No. This particular agency, this particular program that was started kept us busy. So, I
didn’t make it out of the office much to, to kind of make connections and engage with other
people in the community. Mrs. Mello I knew. I knew, Ed Trudel. I knew where to go for the
services, whether it was legal, or whether it was for health, and so forth. But basically, my job
was to get everyone their help, and hopefully resolve situations in a positive manner.
G: Do you remember having to handle any particular crisis with individuals, or groups at all
during your tenure?
B: Not so much groups. I think the only challenging issue was this person, this woman who
came in, and her husband was ill. And I don’t know what kind of chemical he was working with
in this factory, but it was one of those situations where it was new to us to kind of make this
connection that possibly having worked there for x number of years, he is sick because of this.
I don’t remember how that one was resolved. I think we moved that on to a legal situation
because we didn’t have the background. But that was probably the most challenging one I can
think of. Everyone else was coming in making appointments for health. Setting up an
appointment to have a driver from our office take them to that appointment. Learning how to
access, because back then in the early eighties, when you were taking your driver’s test it was
not in [one’s] native language. So, if you wanted to get your license you had to understand
English and again we connected with the International Institute. No, it was all pretty tame.
G: Well, these were basic services that people needed?
B: These were basic services because of the language barrier, and maybe some anxiety as to
how to access these things. We were a good conduit to help individuals make those
connections.
12
�G: Did you learn some Portuguese when you were with LUPA?
B: I did. I don’t have much left, but I can say, “Espere um minuto.” And then what would
happen is I would say my short phrases, and then the individual would start talking to me. And
I’d say “No! I only speak a little.” But everyone was really so thankful and kind for the services
that we were providing. It was a pleasant, positive experience.
G: You mentioned you tended to refer clients, the people that needed services, to Portuguese
doctor, or a Portuguese lawyer.
B: Portuguese speaking, yes. And I would assume, I am not sure whether they were from the
Azores, or maybe where they were from. I don’t remember who they were, but it was just an
easy connection, because again, the language barrier was the key element that prevented some
of these services to happen for these individuals.
G: Yes. One of the well-known Portuguese lawyers in Lowell at the time was Herb Pitta.
B: Herb Pitta, yes. I remember that name. That’s right, Herb Pitta. And the thing was is that
again, the team I worked with, the wonderful individuals I worked with, they may not have
been able to be a translator for a health-related situation. They may not have known how to
translate some dire diagnosis, or something. That’s why it was best to connect them with a
doctor who could then speak with more of a specialist to help the individual out.
G: Did you work at all with Maria Cunha?
B: I did not work with Maria Cunha, but in later years, many years later became familiar with
her because I worked with her sister, Fatima Palermo, and recognized the role that Maria has
played in the Portuguese community. And I don’t know how I missed her back then, but I did
not know here till many, many years later.
G: And how long were you Director?
B: I think it was for over a year. I want to say that the CETA Program had a certain amount of
time that you could work with them. And because it was supposed to be an educational and
training program, then you were to move on. But again, I don’t remember how I got this job.
G: Who succeeded you as director?
B: I don’t think there was someone who succeeded me. I think my time ended there, and I
think that the people who were there as the interpreters, they stayed on. But I don’t know
what kind of, how long that was after I left.
G: So, again, I was wondering, because LUPA continued after your time.
13
�B: Yes.
G: Because it continued at least until the late 1980s I believe.
B: Yes.
G: But you weren’t associated with them at all after you left?
B: No, I mean I still had the connections with the people who I worked with, but I went on to
work at the university [University of Massachusetts Lowell] after that. That was a brand-new
job also at the university. So, I didn’t get back to the community, but I always kept my eyes and
ears opened about what was happening in the Portuguese community, because it was such a
positive experience. And of course, Barry’s Bakery and the Portuguese Bakery up on Gorham
Street, and the restaurants, yes.
G: What was your job at the university after you left?
B: I was the Annual Giving Director. I was the first one that they hired to come in and start
their program, which today has, I think I had a secretary back then, and now it’s a huge, huge
office. So, I’m pleased that I was at the beginning of their successful fundraising department.
G: One other question I did want to ask you, because it’s an important legacy in documenting
the Portuguese community in Lowell, and that is the work that Kevin Harkins, photographer, did
in the early 1980s. Can you describe the project? Its origins and what was done?
B: Well, what I remember is that, and I recently looked at his photo documentary, it just was
looking at the life, the daily lives of the people in the Portuguese community, mostly in the Back
Central area. So, Kevin did a phenomenal job in terms of looking at their social and religious
[activities], their sports. When I looked at the pictures from the mills it was very startling,
because in many ways I would have dated those pictures much before the eighties [1980s].
They just looked still pretty primitive to me. And some of the work that the individuals were
doing, I mean, I don’t know if OSHA had been in here lately. But what [Kevin Harkins’
photographic work] did is it left this legacy of what this neighborhood looked like back then.
Very simple. Very engaging. The church, soccer, the celebrations and the mills, this was what
this community was. There were businesses too, which were nice to look at. But the people we
dealt with, those four things, the church, the sports, the mill work, [the celebrations], those
were the things that kept them strong in the community. That was what knitted them
together.
G: Do you know who came up with the idea for Kevin to do this very interesting, social
documentary?
B: I don’t. [Note: Kevin Harkins recalled that the idea to document the neighborhood and its
residents originated with Barbara Dunsford.] I do remember writing grants. I know we wrote
14
�grants to the Parker Foundation, because they were always so supportive even back then, for
Lowell and for the new immigrants. And I’m not sure if that’s where Kevin was paid from, but if
that was the case, then it was probably something I wrote. I mean in those days, between
keeping the doors open and looking for people to donate to the organization, looking for grants
to support this new idea, a lot of balls up in the air, but I do think that that’s one thing that
Kevin’s documentary is just superlative. Because this is what this neighborhood, this Back
Central Street neighborhood looked like then.
G: One thing I did find interesting about Kevin’s work, is that in addition to social services that
LUPA was offering, the Portuguese Center was offering, you were also doing essentially cultural
programming.
B: Yes.
G: And I was wondering in addition to the work that Kevin did, were there other grants that
you wrote, or other cultural programs that LUPA was involved with?
B: I don’t remember. I know, at the time, in the mid-eighties’ era, Joan Ross and Jim Higgins
[designed] The Lowell Plan documentary [Note: The Lowell Plan booklet contained photographs
by Jim Higgins] on what was going to happen [in Lowell]. And I actually have a copy of that with
this resume, even though it was done a number of years after I was at LUPA. And there was a
lot of interest from the city to document these populations that were here, and the new
populations that were coming.
G: I did want to skip back to ask you about, in addition to Azoreans, did your office deal with
any Brazilians?
B: I don’t remember at the time any. No. I think they, the Brazilian population came later, and
so we didn’t. It was mainly, everyone knew everybody from their islands. And we had, I think
when you look back at some of these photos, you’ll see that there’s a picture of Portugal, and
there’s a picture of the Azores, and then a picture of the United States. And I remember those
on the [LUPA] office wall. I don’t remember why they were up there, but I needed to learn the
Islands names, because that’s where the people came from.
G: With your experience working, were you able to distinguish any cultural differences
between say, Azoreans and Madeirans, or those from Mainland Portugal?
B: No, but I know that there was a strong association with the Islands that you came from.
G: So, you did mention the Portuguese American Civic League, as it was one of the key clubs, or
social organizations. What about the Portuguese American Center? The “Blues Club.” Do you
remember how (--)
15
�B: Oh, the Blues Club. I just knew them as clubs. They each had their own kind of distinct
boards. I don’t remember, but I would think that some of the board members that were the
LUPA board members were probably members of those associations, because it was very tight
knit. I mean this was a small section of the City of Lowell, and everyone knew about everybody
else.
G: Again, getting back to the board members that you worked with, was there anyone in
particular that was say, especially important for a leadership role within the Portuguese
community in Lowell?
B: I think João DeSilva was a very strong advocate for his community. Clarinda Adelino, who I
believe was a part of the executive board, also. Alda Rocha, who is João DaSilva’s sister, was
working in social services at the time, and she was somebody, a very outgoing individual, very
connected with her community. I ended up, over the years since LUPA, bumping into her here
and there. And last I saw she was working at Elder Services, now called Age Span, and could
still be there as a social service person. She would be a huge resource for you if you could
connect with her.
G: That’s a wonderful idea.
B: Yes. And Paul Godinho, I think I gave you his information. Again, they would know where
everybody is, and they could give you some information about the inception of LUPA and why it
happened.
G: What do you remember about him? What were his key roles with LUPA?
B: Paul was outgoing. He had, dark hair, dark mustache, trim build. And I want to say that they
all, these board members were all very close with each other. [Note: After this interview
Barbara recalled that Filomena Ferreira was another important LUPA board member.] And so,
there was one person, I don’t remember who it was, it could have been Clarinda, where you
saw Paul, you saw this other person. Other than that, if he walked in the door, I would
remember him. He had a very distinct look.
G: I wanted to ask you too, about one other key figure in the Portuguese community, and that
was John Silva, who was one of the largest property holders in Lowell, and owned a number of
properties in Back Central.
B: Yes, absolutely.
G: Do you remember having any dealings with John Silva, or the board dealing with him?
B: Not that I know of. We knew his name, and he lived over on Middlesex Street, by School
Street and Wilder. He had a house there that was set back, off the road, and he had Doberman
Pinchers that would always just run up to the gate if you were ever nearby. But he, I just
16
�remember him as being somewhat of a character and also one of the largest landowners in the
City of Lowell. So, but I had no direct [contact], I just knew of him because of his status in the
Portuguese community.
G: Did any of the people who, Portuguese, who used the services of LUPA, were their housing
issues at all that you had to deal with, or your organization dealt with?
B: I don’t remember. I think it’s a possibility, because my remembrance of the community is
that everybody was very hard working. They wanted their children to get an education. The
people that we had our service center at, owned their property. And I don’t remember their
names specifically, but they would, in the summer we would get fresh tomatoes. At
Christmastime we would get little gifts from them. I think, like the American dream, that many
of these individuals just wanted to better the next generation, and buy houses, and participate
in the community, and raise their children, I don’t think in Chelmsford, or Westford, still in the
Back Central Street area, because this was where they had their foothold.
G: But I wondered if any of the Portuguese in need of some services had some issues with say,
landlord, or some housing problems.
B: I would think that that was probably part of our wrap around services, but specifically I don’t
remember that. It was mostly translations. It was appointments. And I’m sure it was a myriad
of all those other things put together.
G: Okay. So, let me just conclude by asking you, what do you feel like your legacy is with LUPA?
And what do you feel like you accomplished?
B: Well, I think it was a team effort with LUPA. I think with the translators, the interpreters,
again, all really good, giving, kind people. We just all pulled together. We had a very
welcoming agency, where you could walk through the door basically at any time between nine
and five, Monday through Friday, and we were there to help you. If we couldn’t help you, we
found someone to help you. So, I think for individuals who were facing barriers not
understanding our systems, language being an issue, maybe at times family circumstances as
such that no one could help them, when they came over that doorstep at LUPA at 994 Central
Street, they got attention. They received attention, and we helped them as best we possibly
can. And if we couldn’t, we just found some others who could do a better job than us. It was a
wonderful experience. I think I was telling you the story about one woman coming in. I said,
“Oh my goodness! You have this beautiful name, Female. Where did you get this name?” She
says, “Well I didn’t get it.” She said, “When I came here, they checked this box off, and that’s
the name that they gave me.” And basically, the short story is, someone checked the female
box off, and this person felt that wherever she came through, New York or wherever, they were
giving her this name, which as we know way when, when people were entering our country, if
there was any questions the individuals who were there were making decisions about what
their names would be for basically the rest of their lives. I remember that story. It was just
17
�wonderful, because when I realized it was Female [from marking “female” in the gender
category on the immigration form], I said, “Oh my God, that was a wonderful name.”
G: Well again, thank you very much Barbara. I appreciate it.
B: Thank you, Gray.
Interview ends.
18
�
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UMass Lowell Portuguese American Oral Histories [1985-2018]
Description
An account of the resource
These oral histories with Portuguese immigrants and their descendants in the Greater Lowell area were conducted between 1985-2016. Topics covered include the experience of immigration, working conditions, family life, and more. These oral histories were funded by the Lowell National Historical Park, the American Folklife Center, and UMass Lowell.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Azorean Americans
Children of immigrants
Cultural assimilation
Mills and mill-work
Portuguese American women
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PDF
Language
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English
Type
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Document
Source
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All items can be found at the Center for Lowell History in Lowell, MA.
Publisher
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UMass Lowell, Center for Lowell History
Rights
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In Copyright - Educational Use Permitted: This Item is protected by copyright and/or related rights. You are free to use this Item in any way that is permitted by the copyright and related rights legislation that applies to your use. In addition, no permission is required from the rights-holder(s) for educational uses. For other uses, you need to obtain permission from the rights-holder(s).
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1985-2018
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Barbara Dunsford Oral History Interview
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2023-04-24
Description
An account of the resource
This interview is divided into two parts. The first part includes a brief family history of Barbara Dunsford and covers her years growing up in post-World War II Lowell, her education in the city’s public schools, her university studies, and her early work experiences. The second part focuses on her work at the Portuguese American Resource Center (PARC) in Lowell that was a program, funded by through the City of Lowell via the federal Comprehensive Employment and Training Act. PARC was a key program operated under the aegis of the Lowell Union of Portuguese Americans (LUPA), which was founded in 1977 to provide social services to the city’s growing Portuguese immigrant community. This part of the interview highlights the role of PARC within Lowell’s Portuguese community and it also covers some institutional background information on LUPA.<br /><br /><strong>Biographical Note:</strong><br />One of four siblings, Barbara Dunsford was born in Lowell and grew up in the city’s Highlands neighborhood. Her father was a public school teacher at the city’s vocational school and her mother was a homemaker until she entered the workforce in the 1960s. Barbara’s mother, Sophie Anne (Goncarz) Dunsford (1918-2006), was born in Lowell and her parents were Polish immigrants. Her father, Harold Bevan Dunsford, Jr. (1918-1973), was also born in Lowell, but of English (Yorkshire) descent. Barbara and her siblings attended St. Casimir’s Polish National Church in the Centreville neighborhood. All four siblings were educated in Lowell’s public schools and received college degrees. Barbara studied psychology, graduating from Lowell State College in 1973. She worked for a short time at a garden center before obtaining a staff position in Lowell’s public schools. Around 1981, she was hired as director of the Portuguese American Resource Center, a program of the Lowell Union of Portuguese Americans (LUPA).<br />Founded in 1977 and located in Lowell’s Back Central section, which was the city’s major Portuguese neighborhood, LUPA provided social services to the area’s Portuguese residents. A large number of Portuguese immigrants, primarily from the Azores, settled in Lowell beginning in the 1960s and into the early 1980s. The Resource Center offered a number of services and programs to aid this growing immigrant population. As director, Barbara coordinated some of these activities with the International Institute of Lowell, a long-time immigrant aid organization. She also wrote a number of grants, including one that led to an extensive photographic documentation project, carried out by local professional photographer Kevin Harkins, of the Back Central neighborhood and its residents, as well as in the various factories where many Portuguese were employed. After federal funds supporting the Resource Center were expended, Barbara worked as a director of fundraising for the University of Massachusetts Lowell. She remains active today as a consultant to a number of non-profit organizations in Lowell.
Creator
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Fitzsimons, Gray
Subject
The topic of the resource
Community organization
Immigrants--Cultural Assimilation--United States
Azorean Americans
Coverage
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Lowell (Mass.)
Source
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Interview conducted through the Saab Center for Portuguese Studies at the University of Massachusetts Lowell.
Publisher
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UMass Lowell, Center for Lowell History
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copyright - Educational Use Permitted: This Item is protected by copyright and/or related rights. You are free to use this Item in any way that is permitted by the copyright and related rights legislation that applies to your use. In addition, no permission is required from the rights-holder(s) for educational uses. For other uses, you need to obtain permission from the rights-holder(s).
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JPEG
MP3
PDF
Language
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English
Type
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Audio
Image
Text
International Institute
Lowell Union of Portuguese Americans (LUPA)
Portuguese American Resource Center (PARC)
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UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
CENTER FOR LOWELL HISTORY
ORAL HISTORY COLLECTION
EASTERN NATIONAL
LOWELL NATIONAL HISTORICAL PARK
UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
“AFTER THE LAST GENERATION:
LOWELL’S TEXTILE WORKERS, 1958-1998, PART II”
INFORMANT: FRANCISCA DESOUSA
INTERVIEWER: KIMBERLY SZEWCZYK, GRAY FITZSIMONS
DATE: APRIL 11, 2002
G = GRAY
F = FRANCISCA
K = KIMBERLY
Tape 02.03
G: All right. We are in the Boott Cotton Mills Museum. It is Thursday, April 11th. I’m
here with Kimberly Szewczyk, and our special guest, Francisca DeSousa. Am I
pronouncing your name correctly?
F: Yes. Yes.
G: Francisca.
F: Francisca, yes.
G: Francisca, I see. Okay. Francisca, it’s great to have you here.
F: Thank you.
G: What I’d like to do is ask you a few questions about your family background. And
first of all tell us, where were you born?
F: I was born in Terceira Island in the Azores. I’m Portuguese.
G: How do you spell the name of the town?
F: That’s T E R C E I R A, Terceira.
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�G: Ah huh, and how large a family are you from?
F: I have two more sisters, and my father was a police officer, (G: Ah huh) and my
mother is a home, a home mom.
G: And where do you fit into the family?
F: I’m the middle child. (G: Okay) Yes. Well I was always jealous of my older sister,
and because she has a beautiful blonde hair. She was blonde, and I was not blonde. So.
(G: Ah huh) And my younger sister, she was the only one with the privilege for
everything. She could do anything she wanted because she was the youngest. So I was
the middle child. [Chuckles]
G: And were your parents both Portuguese decent?
F: Yes, my parents are Portuguese. Yes, my father passed away seven years ago, (G:
Okay. Ah huh) and my mother is still alive. She had a little stroke, but she’s eighty-five
now.
G: Okay. Ah huh.
F: But she’s doing good.
G: Okay. And what year were you born?
F: ‘49
G: 1949. (F: 1949) And so you were the middle child. (F: Yes) And tell us about
your schooling. Did you go to school?
F: I went to school, to high school and I have one year of college. And after I got my
job, (G: Umhm) because I was willing to get my money and my things. (G: Ah huh) So
I went to a typewriting school, and after I went to school to be, you know, to learn the
language, and I went to my job. I had a couple of interviews in the base, because it was
not easy to get in. And after I got my job in 1969. I was a keypunch operator. I was
there for about two years, and after I got a better opportunity on, was a GS3 I believe. I
was GS2 at the time. It was more money. So they gave me opportunity to be a clerk
typist. So I went to work with Major, with Captain Finch, and Captain Clark, and
Captain Burtt, and they were all beautiful, beautiful people.
G: Now, and this was an Air Force Base?
F: In the Air Force Base, yes.
G: And where was the base?
2
�F: It was in [Unclear], Terceira. I had to take a bus for about one hour, (G: Oh really?)
yes, from my house to the place where I was working.
G: And were you living at home when you were working there?
F: I was living home with my, my parents. I just left the house when I got married. (G:
Ah huh) I didn’t have money for an apartment or anything.
G: Now did you get married in the Azores?
F: In the Azores, 1972.
G: Okay. Ah huh. And how long did you work at the air force base.
F: For about three years.
G: For five years. Okay.
F: In 1973 I came to United States.
G: 1973. (F: 1973) But before you came to the U.S. were you, you had that GS
position there, a government position at the Air Force Base?
F: As a civilian, yah.
G: As a civilian.
F: GS, it was a GS4. (G: Ah huh) A GS4.
G: Were you required to be a citizen of the U.S. to have that job?
F: No. No. (G: Ah huh) Right there, no.
G: Okay. Ah huh.
F: You just apply for a job and if you are qualified (G: Yes) they will give you an
opportunity to work there.
G: And you met obviously a lot of Americans there.
F: Oh yes, Americans they are very nice people. Most of them, they were wonderful
people.
G: Did you meet anyone from Lowell?
F: No. They were all from California, Utah, Montana, all that (--)
3
�G: Servicemen and their families?
F: Yes, families, yes, very nice people.
G: And so, and why did you decide to come to the United States?
F: Because I got married, (A: Ah huh) and my husband had all of his family over here.
G: Oh really.
F: And he has a job there that he was not, he was a mechanic, auto mechanic, and he was
not making too much money. So he says, his family, all the brothers were over here, and
the mother and the father. So they said, “Oh, it’s better if you come over, and you have a
better opportunity and a better job, and you can live better.” So we got married and he
came first. And after he went back and I came later on, a year later I came here.
G: Where did you meet him?
F: In the Azores. I was fourteen years old, and he was seventeen. [Both laugh]
G: Ah huh. Was he a high school student?
F: Yes. Yes.
G: Ah huh. Okay. So you dated while he was in high school?
F: Yes, we dated for a while. After he went into the army, and he came back. That’s
when we got married.
G: Okay. Now, and by the way, what was his name?
F: Antonio. (G: Antonio) Antonio DeSousa. (G: Okay. Okay) Yah, that’s my
husband.
G: And how old were you when you married?
F: Twenty-three.
G: And so he was twenty-six.
F: He was twenty-six.
G: Okay. And were you living together, husband and wife for a little while there,
before?
4
�F: No, no, no. We just stayed there for the honeymoon. (G: Aaah, okay) We went to a
beautiful place by the seaside. And we were on the honeymoon there for two weeks.
And after that he came right away (G: Okay) for the United States, because he just have
two weeks from his job. (G: Ah huh) He couldn’t stay longer. So after that we have to
go to the Council, United States Council, and we have to ask permission. So there’s a lot
of paper work back and forth. We have to go to the doctor and make sure we are not sick
and we have no diseases, big diseases. So it takes about a year. It took about a year, and
after I came here to be with my husband.
G: So he was over here for a year while you were still (--)
F: Before, yes.
G: I see, okay.
F: He could come here earlier because he has his family. His family call him like, even
they make the papers for him so he could come here legal. But I was not legal because I
didn’t have nobody in this country. (G: Yes) So after I got married, of course I could
come over here.
G: Okay. Ah huh.
F: So that’s why he came first. He got some money. He went back there. We got
married. We got married there, and after I came a year later.
G: And what, where was he over here in the U. S.? Where did he live?
F: He was always in Lowell.
G: In Lowell?
F: Always in Lowell. (G: Ah huh) That’s where they have the jobs. At the time they
had a lot of jobs. Not now.
G: Ah huh, and this was in the early 1970’s, or?
F: Yes, 1973.
G: 1973. (F: Yes) And he had brothers here you said?
F: All brothers. He has five brothers in here.
G: And they were all in Lowell?
F: All, no. One is in Dracut. One is in New Bedford, and one is in Pelham, and now one
is Canada.
5
�G: Okay. Okay. But were they back in 1973?
F: They were all around here.
G: Oh they were all around. (F: All around) Okay. And what sort of jobs did they have
here?
F: Oh, one is a salesman that lives in New Bedford. Freetown is close to New Bedford.
And Henry has his own business. He has a travel agency. And John is retired now. And
my husband, he’s working on Bradford Industries. He’s a batcher, something like that. I
don’t even know what kind a job is that.
G: What do they manufacture there?
F: they manufacture seat cars, you know the, I don’t know what they call that?
K: Upholstery?
F: Yes, but he’s, they make, they make earplugs. They make the safety, what they call
that for the cars? (G: Airbags?) Airbags! (G: Yes) Airbags for the cars. (G: Yes.
Umhm) All that kind of stuff. It’s been very, very, very slow there too. Now it’s picking
up a little bit, but for a year he just work three days a week. (G: Oh) He was working
three days a week for a year.
G: Now did he start there way back in 1970?
F: No, no, no. He was working at Stratos Auto Sales. He was a mechanic there. (G:
Okay) He was the first man that he worked on Middlesex Street. (G: On Middlesex) It
was the first job he had, it was there, (G: Ah huh. Okay) and he was there for a couple
of years. And after they shut down, they went bankruptcy. And he went to work for his
brother, because he had his own business. It was furniture. He was in furniture.
G: Umhm. Sales?
F: Salesman. (G: Okay) So he was working with him for about seven or eight years.
And they went bankruptcy.
G: This was the brother. This was the brother in Lowell who had a furniture (--)
F: Yah, he had DeSousa Furniture on Middlesex Street, and he was delivering furniture
and going all over Mass. He had a very good business at that time, but things went bad.
So he had to shut down the place. And my husband went to Wang, Wang Laboratories.
(G: Yes) He was working there for a couple of years. (G: Ah huh) I think eight or nine
years he worked there.
6
�G: That long? (F: Yes) And what did he do at Wang?
F: He is, he worked in the computers, and oh my God!
G: Was it manufacturing, or was?
F: A tester.
G: Oh a tester? (F: Yes) Okay.
F: He was a tester there.
G: So quality control kind of work.
F: Quality control, yes.
G: Okay.
F: And after, he worked there for eight years I believe, eight or nine years. And he went
to this place. He was laid off for a while because Wang went down. They started laying
off people with money. He was the lucky one to get the money. So he got laid off and he
went to this Bradford Industries. He’s been working there for fifteen years now. (G:
Okay. Umhm) That’s the last job that he, that he try. [Laughs]
G: Now when you first came to Lowell to join your husband where did you live?
F: I live in Lowell.
G: In what part of Lowell?
F: In Vernon Street, up in uh, Mt. Vernon, up there. I loved there. It was very nice, very
quiet, very good neighborhood.
G: What was your house like there?
F: Very small. It was a very small apartment. It was just a kitchen, yes, it was the (--)
The kitchen was a big kitchen, and the bedroom and the bathroom, that’s it. And after
when we start getting kids, my first kid Deborah, Deborah was born in ’74. And we
stayed there for a year, but the apartment was really small. We moved to Concord Street,
to a bigger apartment, because I was pregnant for Richard, my second one. He was born
in ’75. And we lived there for quite some time. And in ’74 I went to work at Lowell
Lingerie when I was pregnant for my daughter. I was working in the office there. I was
a clerk typist, (G: Okay) but I was not making money. It was $2.00 an hour. Oh my
God, $2.00 an hour. And I was working there, but I didn’t like the job. Oh my God!
They had, in the office they had the big, big window of course, because they wanted to be
seeing the people that were working there. All the women they were Greek, Greek, most
7
�of them they were Greek, and they were working like lions. Oh my God they were
working all the time. And I came from a place that people were just working. It was not,
it was not piece work there. In the base we just worked like, ah, it was beautiful. It was
like a family. I loved that.
G: Yes. So the pace was much faster here than there?
F: Oh my God, I got there and the people were screaming with the women. They
couldn’t, they were working, but they were stitching all the time you know, the machines.
If they look up to look around, the supervisor will scream at them! And I was so nervous,
and I was pregnant for my, my Deborah, and I think that made me feel so sick, and I
started throwing up. And I was very, very sick, very nervous. I didn’t like to see that. I
said, oh my, it looks like white slavery. They talk about slavery, my God, because people
were on piecework. They couldn’t move. They couldn’t do anything. That was a
tremendous experience for me. Oh my God, I was so sick to see that. Oh, it was terrible.
G: And it was mostly Greek women working there?
F: Yes.
G: What about the people who were managing the place?
F: Well the managers, I didn’t have contact with them, (G: Yah) because they were
people that, you are here, and I am there. So don’t bother me, you know, that kind of
people that you don’t talk to them. They don’t even say nothing to you when they go by
you. They don’t say hi or anything.
G: Were they also Greeks who ran the business?
F: Most of them, they were Jewish. They were Jews.
G: Umhm. Umhm. Do you remember their name?
F: No, it was so long ago I don’t remember.
G: And was it a union, or non-union operation?
F: It was a non-union operation.
G: But mostly women working there.
F: Just women.
G: And male supervisors?
F: Male supervisors, and that man screamed I’m telling you. Oh!
8
�G: Now you took that job not too long after you first came to Lowell, yes?
F: Yes. It was about let’s see, about six months. (G: Okay) After I was in Lowell a
friend of mine got me that job.
G: Okay, and that was your first job in Lowell?
F: It was my first job in Lowell. I was there. I was there for the year.
G: One year!
F: One year, and I asked for a lay-off. They didn’t give me lay-off. I asked for lay-off
because I was getting very, very sick and with my baby and everything. I didn’t know
what was wrong then. So I asked them to give me lay-off. So I went for a lay-off and I
was making $40.00 a week. Oh boy!
G: So you had your child then?
F: I had my child then, and after I was pregnant for my second child. That’s in ’75 I had
my child. And I had another friend of mine, a Portuguese girl, her name is Honoria. She
was a very, very good friend. And she was working for Joan’s Fabric. She was a weaver
there. And she talked with her boss, in that time it was Joe Mandazi. He was the nicest
person that I ever met in my life. He passed a way. I feel, I’m sorry. [Francisca is a little
emotional] He was a very good man, very, he was the best! The best! And he knew that
I needed a job. So I went there and um, oh excuse me, I can’t talk about him.
G: That’s okay. Was he a Portuguese man?
F: No, he was Italian. He was an American.
G: Italian American.
F: Yes, but he was that kind of person that you talk to him, and you, you trust that
person. He was the best man, the best boss that I ever had.
G: Oh that’s wonderful. Now actually before I wanted to ask you about your initial
experience when you first came to Lowell. What did you, what did you think of Lowell
when you first arrived?
F: Oh my God! When I came to Lowell (--)
K: What time of year was it?
F: It was in August, the August, 23rd of August, ’73. And that was when I came to
Lowell I was thinking that I was going to be in a place that like they have in the movies.
9
�So America for me was that beautiful place where you have a garden outside, and you
have everything, it’s beautiful! So I came to Lowell, and Lowell was terrible. It was not,
it was an industrial city, but very old, very ugly, very dirty. The most thing that shocked
me was very dirty. I came from a place that everything is so clean, and it was very dirty.
It was people outside on the streets drinking beer outside the house. I said, “Oh my God
what’s this?” It was a shock. I was so disappointed. I was crying all the time. I told my
husband, “I want to go back. I want to go back. I don’t want to be living in this place.
And this is all bad, and I don’t like these people, they are so rude,” because they were
rude. Because when you work with military they are the nicest people in the world,
because they cannot, they have to go straight all the time. They can’t turn around. They
cannot say anything to you even if they want to. So these people were so rude in the
streets and everything. I said, “Oh my God, I want to go back to my place.” It was bad.
(G: Yes) It was very bad.
G: Now of course you came here speaking English. (F: Yes) So language was not such
a problem.
F: No, it was not bad. It was not bad, because I could understand the people. It was
better than most of the people that came over here, they don’t know nothing. But oh, but
it was bad.
G: Yah. Do you remember the kind of people that lived in Mt. Vernon, that
neighborhood where you, what sort of folks were they? Was it a mixed neighborhood?
F: No, no, no, it was most of the people were old people. (G: Hmm, really) Very nice
people. (G: Uh huh) Very nice people. Very nice. They were old.
G: Retired perhaps?
F: Most of them were retired. Most of them were retired, and it was very quiet. I lived
closed to the water, the, they have a water tank there. What do they call that?
G: A stand pipe?
F: Is that so?
G: I think that’s the one you described. The water supply tank, yes?
F: That’s the water supply, yes. (G: Yes) I lived right there. It was very nice. (G:
Umhm) It was the best place that I, that I loved to live, it was there.
G: Now did you get a sense that it was mixed nationalities of Greeks, and French, and
Irish, or was it mostly Portuguese?
F: No, no, it was, they were all American. I was the only Portuguese there.
10
�G: Okay. Okay.
F: I was the only Portuguese there, but I was getting along with them because they are
old people, and I have no kids at the time. So everything was fine.
G: And do you remember coming downtown and shopping downtown?
F: Yes, most of the times I came down, especially after I had my baby I would come
down Lowell and walk around. I loved to walk around and see the stores and it was nice.
It was nice.
G: Now was that neighborhood around Back Central largely Portuguese, do you recall?
Back Central?
F: Back Central, yes.
G: Did you spend much time there?
F: They were all Portuguese back there.
G: Did you spend much time there in the shops and socializing?
F: No, no, it was almost the same. Yah, just passing by and buying some stuff and
talking a little bit, but not much. But I love to talk, so. [Chuckles]
G: Did you attend St. Anthony’s Church?
F: Yes we did, yes.
G: Okay. Uh huh. That was your parish?
F: And we still, we still do, yah (G: Okay. Uh huh) that’s St. Anthony’s.
G: So right away you started going to St. Anthony’s?
F: Yes, and I have all my kids baptized, and all that.
G: Uh huh. And did you make friends within the Portuguese community in Lowell, or
did you make friends from outside the Portuguese?
F: We have friends we had from Peabody. We have friends in New Hampshire, some of
them. We have friends in New Bedford. We have friends all over, in Methuen. (G:
Yesh) Yah, we have friends all over.
G: But when you said when you came to Lowell it was, it was difficult initially.
11
�F: It was very, very difficult.
G: Having a large Portuguese community here, did that help you at all as far as adjusting
to life in Lowell?
F: Well, well not to me. (G: No?) No, because my husband is not the outgoing person.
He’s one, he likes to stay home most of the times. So we didn’t went to the feast and
meet people like the Holy Ghost, and no, we didn’t go, we were very, very to ourselves.
G: Okay, okay. I see. Okay. But occasionally you would meet other people maybe
even from your same town here in Lowell?
F: No, no, (G: Oh no?) because most of the people from Terleira, where I came from
and my husband, they are going to California.
G: Really? Okay.
F: Yes. They go to California for, because they are farmers. So over here these people
from another island that’s called [Graciosa], most of the people. So we didn’t know most
of them we don’t know them. So. So if we meet we talk and so, but not getting close
friends.
G: Yes. But now your friends who got you the job at Joan Fabrics, (F: Yes) now who
was she?
F: Yes, she’s from Terleira, but from Lajes, from another city. [G: Umhm] But she’s,
she’s still my friend today. She’s a very good person.
G: Did you know her before you came to Lowell?
F: No, no, I didn’t.
G: So you met her here?
F: I met her in my brother-in-law house. They were friends. (G: Uh huh) And I was
talking to her about my job, that I didn’t like it, and I was getting laid-off because I don’t
like the job. I don’t like the (--) She said, “Oh, I’m going to talk with Joe, (G: Yes) and
maybe I can do something about that. (G: Right) So he got me the job right away.
G: Okay. And what was your job at that time?
F: I start as a weaver. (G: Umhm. Umhm) And ah, that was terrible, because I never
seen a weave, a loom in my life! I look at that loom and I was just, I couldn’t talk. I just
start crying. I said, “Honoria, I can’t work on this thing. I never seen one in my life.”
She said, “Me too, you get used to that.” [Laughs]
12
�G: Was it noisy?
F: Very noisy. We were doing furniture, (G: Upholstery) upholstery. (G: Umhm) And
we had to take, it was um, ah, that looms were so different. And we have to do
everything. The weaver has to cut the rolls and everything. And for me, because I’m a
short, a short person and small, oh my God! I just cried and cried, and I said, “I can’t do
it.” But they were paying $3.00 an hour. So for me it was, another $1.00 an hour was a
lot at that time, and I had my two kids. So I said, “I have to stay with this. I have to be
here. I have to keep the job,” but it was very hard, very hard for me to learn that job.
G: And did you say you started working there before you had Richard, or after?
F: After I had my Richard. It was in 1976 (G: Okay, okay) when I came to Joan’s,
1976.
G: So you had two children and he was what, one year old about when you started?
F: Not even. My little, Deborah was one year old, and he was about, about six months.
G: And what shift were you working when you started?
F: I start working first shift, and after, because she was training me. And after six weeks,
I believe I stayed with her six weeks, I went to second shift by myself.
G: Now did your friend actually train you in the job as well? (F: Yes) Oh she did.
F: Yes, she was the one who trained me.
G: Oh okay.
F: Yes, I was trained for six weeks, I believe it was six weeks, then after I went to the
second shift.
G: Now what was the first shift, what were those hours?
F: Was six to two.
G: Six in the morning until two. And what did you do about childcare while you were at
work?
F: Well I had to get a babysitter. A friend of mine, her mother-in-law was the one who
took care of my kids while I was working.
G: Okay, and you obviously had to pay for the babysitter.
F: Yes, $30.00 a week.
13
�G: I see. I see.
F: Now it’s a hundred, but that time was $30.00 a week, I was making a $100.00. So.
G: Now what was that loom like that you were trained on? Was it a rapier loom?
F: It was a rapier loom.
G: It was a rapier loom.
F: It was a rapier loom, and it was very easy. That one, compared with the other ones
that I came later on to work with, that ones were very easy. (G: I see. I see) But for me
it was the end of the world because I never seen one before.
G: Okay. And how many looms were you expected to operate?
F: Five. We operate five looms. (G: Five looms) Five looms, and we have to do
everything. We have to cut the rolls, and mostly, and patrol the machines of course. (G:
And tie knots too) And tie knots, but they were very easy, because they were not that
kind, they were yarn and yarn doesn’t break as easy as the other, like silk or something
like that.
G: Okay. This is actually a synthetic yarn?
F: Synthetic yarn.
G: Okay. Yes. Hm. Now were there loom fixers that were there?
F: One loom fixer for twenty-five machines.
G: Okay. So were you working in a room that had overall twenty-five looms?
F: Twenty-five machines yah, twenty-five looms together.
G: And there would have been five weavers.
F: Yes, five looms for one weaver.
G: And were they all women?
F: At the time there were three women and two men.
G: Uh huh, okay. Were they all from the Azores, or?
F: No, no, no. I was the only one from the Azores.
14
�G: And your friend too, right?
F: And my friend. It was me and my friend, (G: Ah huh) and another girl from the other
Island. It was three girls from the Island. And there were two Spanish men. (G: Puerto
Rican men?) Puerto Rican men, they are working there.
G: Okay. Ah huh. And did they speak English as well as Spanish?
F: Not, not, not too well. No. We understand them, but not too well.
G: I see. Okay.
F: Yah, but they were doing their job good.
G: What about the loom fixer?
F: The loom fixer, he was a man from Spain and his name was Casanova. He still works
at Joan’s
G: Ah huh.
F: He was still working when I left. He already retired, but he came back to work just
part-time. He loves money. That man loves money. Oh, he won’t give up for nothing.
His name is John Casanova, and he was the loom fixer at the time.
G: Was he a pretty skilled man?
F: Yes. Yes, very, very.
G: Umhm. And what was your work relationship like with all the people that worked
there?
F: I always got along with everybody. (G: Uh huh. Uh huh) I never had problems with
anybody, anybody.
G: And you mentioned that the two Puerto Rican men were also very hard working?
F: Yes. (G: Yes) Everybody was, we have to because we were on piecework.
G: Uh huh, okay.
F: And you have to be on top of the machines all the time. That looms there, they can’t
stop, (G: Okay) because if they stop for a long time you lose.
G: Now you said you were on piecework.
15
�F: On piecework, $3.00 an hour plus if you make some money on your machines. (G: I
see. Okay) So I could make $5.00 or $5.50, it was the end of the world. [Laughs] It was
too much money.
G: So you were given a base salary, base rate.
F: A base salary, yes.
Tape I, side A ends
Tape I, side B begins
G: Now you were saying that you were working these rapier looms.
F: Yes.
G: And what I wanted to ask you was, when you’re given a base wage of $3.00 per hour,
but what did it require for you to make additional money? You said it was, you had to
produce more, but how did that work? Tell me about that?
F: Well what you have to do is work very fast. You have to be fast. And you cannot
leave the looms for a long time, and the best you can do is if you go to the bathroom you
leave somebody there. You can ask the fixer to be there, so you won’t lose money. You
can go, (G: I see) but you’re going to lose money if the machine stops for one or two or
three minutes, you know. The minutes are money.
G: I see. And why would the machine stop? What would cause the machine to stop?
F: Most of the time it was the rapiers. The yarn that was in the combs. Sometimes it
was not very, very good yarn, and the rapier would break.
G: Okay. Okay. So the filling thread would break?
F: It would break.
G: What about the warp threads, did they break on occasion?
F: Occasionally, but not often.
G: Okay, it was mainly the rapier?
F: The rapier was, the most problems we had was the rapiers.
G: So you had to really stay on top of that?
16
�F: Yes, because most of the time people were fighting because of the money they were
making. If the fixer spends too much time in one loom, and the other loom needs to be
fixed, they would be yelling and screaming at Casanova for example. He has to go there
in the minute. Sometimes they can’t go fast, because they have a problem it takes time to
fix the machine. It takes time. So they would lose money on the machine.
G: So there was a lot of competition for his time.
F: A lot of competition. And a lot of competition before first shift, third shift, second
shift, because you made more money than I did, and the machines run better for you than
they run for me. Somebody helped you, and all that kind of stuff. I never had that
problem. He’s still alive. Anybody can ask him, I never had that problem. I don’t bother
with these things. That is, things more important in life than fighting about money.
G: Now were you wearing hearing protection at that time?
F: Yes, all the time. All the time.
G: But it still was very loud even with the protection.
F: Very loud.
G: And how did you get used to the noise?
F: We just got used to the noise. I don’t understand how, but we do. After a couple of
months we forget. We just put your earplugs, put them in, that’s it, and you forget all
about the noise, and you talk and everything. The funny thing is, you are in your
machines and you have five looms running, and if one stops you know that one of your
looms are stopped. I don’t know how, but we do. We are looking in front. In the back
we have one that says, “Ah, wait a minute, my loom stopped.” And it is. And the loom
is stopped.
G: So you could actually hear in the back when the loom had stopped.
F: Hear yah, in a way, yes. That’s funny, but that happens after a long time. Not in the
beginning, but after a couple of months, years of experience you can learn that.
G: How long did it take you before you got comfortable as a weaver?
F: Oh it take me a long time. A long time, especially in that first job that I had, it was
hard, very hard. It was a very hard job, because you have to do everything. Later on, I
think a year later, or year and a half later they hired a man to cut the rolls. So he was just
there for when we need him he would come over and cut the roll, because it was too
much. Especially for women, doing that job was very hard job.
17
�G: Okay. And what, tell me about that job. How did you handle the rolls? How did you
use those with the weaving?
F: Oh my god. When the, we had the big roll okay, the machine will stop, automatically
would stop. And we had to pull a big bar with the weight of the roll in, pull it out.
G: You’re describing the warp beam, correct? (F: Yah, the) This is the warp, this is the
warp.
F: No, not the warp beam. The beam under the machine, the one that wraps the [draw],
(K: The take-up) the take-up.
G: The take-up, I see. Okay.
F: It would be full, about maybe three hundred, four hundred yards there, and we have to
cut it out, pull in the side, put another bar in (G: Got yah) and wrap it in. It was too
much. (G: Okay) It was too hard for women to do it.
G: How long could the loom run before the take-up was full?
F: Sometimes three, four hours.
G: Okay.
K: Wow.
G: So in the course of one shift you might have to deal with about, well five.
F: About five, five take-ups.
G: Of the take-up of the rolls. (F: Of the rolls) And it sounds like it was very physically
demanding work.
F: Oh my God! It was very, very (--) I used to come home and I had pains all over my
back, my arms. I said, “Oh my God, it looks like somebody was beating me with a bat.”
I was so tired!
G: Because they were so far down you also had to stoop and bend way down.
F: Bend, and I couldn’t pick them up. Some women, they had a woman there, Elena, she
was big and strong and she could do it. She could just pull that thing down. And I look
at her and say, “I wish I was like that.” [Laughs] Because I struggle with mine back and
forth to take it out! Oh my God it was hard.
G: And of course when the loom isn’t running you’re not making money.
18
�F: No. No. But I had, most of the time that I was in trouble I had that man, Casanova
would come over and help me. (G: He would) He would help me. He didn’t help the
others though. He didn’t like the other women. I don’t know why, but he didn’t like
them. They were jealous because he would come over here, over to me. I said, “Well
I’m always quiet, maybe that’s why he’s coming to my side to help me.”
G: Wow, interesting. So you had a very good relationship with Casanova?
F: I had, yes, with everybody. With everybody.
G: Now you said they finally hired somebody, a man who handle the, who did the
cutting as well?
F: Yes. (G: Okay) After that we didn’t have to do it no more. Just take care of the
machines and patrol the looms, and that’s it.
G: And how long had you been there before they hired this man?
F: About a year and a half.
G: Okay. Okay. (F: It was a long time) Uh huh. Now when you first, when you first
started at Joan and you came to that plant, they just opened it up for the first time?
F: No, it was there (G: Okay) for a couple of years, (G: Okay) maybe two or three years
before I went there. (G: Okay) They had people working there before.
G: Okay. So the plant was not that old.
F: No, no, no. No, it was not that old.
G: And the looms, were the looms fairly new?
F: Yes, (G: Okay) oh yes.
G: Do you remember what kind of looms they were, what kind of rapiers? Were they
European manufactured?
F: They were German.
G: A German Company.
F: A German Company.
G: Okay, uh huh.
19
�F: Yah, I don’t remember the name, but I knew they were German, because when they
were (--) Because after all, after a couple of months that I’d been there they had new
machines coming over. And they had German, they had German people, three, yes, three
engineers were there fixing the machines and putting them together, and teaching
Casanova to do this and that and they were working around them. So they were German.
G: So they actually brought in fairly, they brought in new looms (F: Uh huh) even from
the time you were there.
F: Yes, yes, about two or three looms. They brought them in.
G: Okay. So they didn’t replace all the looms. They just brought in a few new ones.
F: Yes, just a few of them.
G: Okay. Did you work on that newer loom too?
F: No, they were for another weaver. (G: Okay) Yah, a different weaver.
G: Now how long did you stay in that job?
F: Oh I think three years on second shift, because after I went to second shift. Yes, three
years. When they start fixing the, this block over here on Jackson Street, Joe Mandazi, he
was my boss at the time. He told me, “When I go there you’re going to be the first one to
go with me.” So when we moved here it was nine to five, because it was just two
machines. They have, yah, they had two looms, one fixer and they were training another
fixer. He was Spencer. Spencer Hayes was his name, Spencer Hayes. They were
training that guy. And it was Joe in the office, and a knot tier, and a starter man. Just six
people there.
G: Starting at Jackson Street?
F: Yes, starting in Jackson Street.
G: Uh huh. Now were you using rapier looms at Jackson Street?
F: Yes, rapier loom, they were French, they were from France.
G: Oh, okay. Brand new looms.
F: Brand new looms, all brand new, all of them. (G: Okay) They start with two, and
after they went little by little, you know, start (--)
G: So they’d see how they were working (F: Yes) and then they would order more.
F: And they, they order all the other looms.
20
�G: Okay. And eventually did everybody transfer over from?
F: Yes, all of them. They start calling (--) They got laid off, and after they start calling
all of them.
G: Calling them back to work again at Jackson Street.
F: Get back to work at Jackson Street.
G: Now let me ask you, do you remember Harold Ansin? Mr. Ansin who was the head
of Joan Fabrics?
F: The son, I remember the son, yes.
G: Which now, was that Larry or Joe?
F: Um, Larry. Larry. He was nice. He was very nice. Every time he go there he would
come around and talk to us. He was very friendly. He was a nice man. He was a nice
man.
G: Do you remember his father though, who actually had the business beforehand?
F: Yes. Yes. He used to come around too. Not as often as Larry. Larry was more
outgoing. (G: Okay) Yah, outgoing person, but I remember him, yes.
G: And do you remember his brother Joe? (F: Yes) Okay, you probably didn’t see him
as much. (F: No, no.) Okay.
F: Larry was around the loom more often. I don’t know why, maybe he liked it, I don’t
know.
G: [Chuckles] And did you get a sense that it was a family business?
F: Yes. Yes, we could see that. (G: Yes) Yah. (G: Okay, now) Especially Larry, he
was always, most of the times, he went there a lot of times, a lot of times.
G: Okay. Did he know your name for example?
F: Yes. He would come around and say, “Hey Francisca, how are you doing?” (G: I
see) He was nice. He was very nice.
G: Yah. Now did you get Christmas bonuses or anything like that do you remember?
F: No. No. Never. Never.
21
�G: A turkey at Christmas?
F: At uh, they started giving turkeys away on um, about let’s see, maybe seven or eight
years ago, but not before. We didn’t have anything.
G: Okay.
F: They don’t give you bonus, or never, nothing, nothing, nothing.
G: Did you get a, did you have a, did you get a raise during the first few years you were
there?
F: Yes, every year.
G: You got a raise every year.
F: Every year. (G: Okay) Three percent, five percent, four percent, it depends on the
business, and how much they decide to give. I don’t think it’s the business. It’s how
much they want to give.
G: Yes, okay.
F: Because they’re doing good.
G: Now when you went over to Jackson Street was it the same job, or did you have a
different job?
F: No, I went as a weaver. (G: Okay) To be trained in another kind of loom. They
were rapiers, but they were electric. They were different from the other ones. (G: Okay,
uh huh) These ones were, you just touch buttons and there they go.
G: How did that compare with the other ones?
F: Uh, they were a lot different and very tall. They were tall. Oh my God! That
machines were so, so high they had to put a platform so we can work on it. [Laughs]
G: I see. So these were smaller and more compact machines.
F: The ones that I had before, they are a little bigger than the ones you have downstairs,
(G: Okay) but they were not too big. (G: Okay) But his one, they were huge! And they
had, in the back they had three beams. (G: Three beams) Three beams. (G: Okay)
They had one, two on the bottom, yes, two for the bottom and one for the, the pile beam.
One pile beam, two back. (G: Oh okay. Ah huh) Oh my God, they were huge, huge,
huge machines!
G: Okay, and these, these were the French machines.
22
�F: The French, yes.
G: Yes. So was it quite an adjustment working on these new, much larger looms?
F: Yes, and they were different because they had about six to eight harnesses. (G:
Umhm) And the ones that I used to work, they had three. (G: Okay) It’s like the ones
downstairs, (G: I see) you know. (G: Ah huh) Three, four the maximum, (G: Yes) and
this one were six and eight. (G: Okay) So you have to learn by the harnesses where you
have the back, the top, the bottom, the pile, where they go to make the design. So it was
much harder to learn that.
G: Were they more work to operate as well?
F: Yes, yes, but easier.
G: How so? How were they easier?
F: They’re easier because most of the times you don’t have to do nothing. (G: Uh huh)
You just have to patrol the machine very, very well. You have to patrol because they are
a lot faster. So you have to go quicker back and forth, and you have to be, how much
machines, how many? It was eight.
G: So you had to tend to eight looms?
F: Yes, we have eight, eight looms (G: Instead of five) instead of five. (G: Okay) And
they were, they were easier, but harder if they break, if they have smashes they were
much, much harder to fix. And most of the times we have to do it, because they have one
smash piecer for all that weave room. It was about forty machines they had at the time,
yah, forty machines. So it’s, it’s a lot, and it was harder.
G: So you still had five weavers tending (F: Yes, all the time) each of them eight looms.
F: For each, for five looms you know, we still had five weavers and the three shifts.
G: Yes.
F: They had the three shifts running all the time.
G: Now were you paid more money because you were operating more looms?
F: I started making $10.00 an hour when I came here to this place. I believe it was
because it was more machines to run, more looms, or because they just decided to give
the $10.00 an hour. I don’t know. I don’t understand because they never explain
anything. They just say, “That’s what you’re going to make.” And that’s it.
23
�G: So you were paid a flat wage as opposed to piecework?
F: Yes. Yes. And after you have, you still have on that plant over there, the piecework.
G: Oh, so there’s still work, (F: Oh yes) still piecework too.
F: He’s still on piecework. (G: Okay) Some people were making, I never made that
much, but, because I am one person that I’m worried about quality. And because I worry
too much about quality, anything I see in a machine, I don’t make as much money. So
the maximum I made was $12.00, $13.00. I never go, I never went over, but my friends
there, oh yes, $17.00 an hour and more they were making.
K: And what year is that they were making that?
F: Oh I’ve been there maybe 1996, 94, 95 when I was a weaver there before I was
transferred to the knitting department.
G: So, but when they first installed those looms, that was you said in 1976 or so?
F: 1976, (G: Okay) when they, when I came to this.
G: Okay. Yes. So, but when you first started working there at 76, and again you were
operating eventually eight looms, (F: Yes) do you remember how much you were paid at
that time?
F: Yah, $10.00.
G: Oh okay, it was $10.00.
F: It was at $10.00 an hour they gave it to me. (G: So that was a big) When you, when
you start working, when you’re learning, they give you $8.00 an hour. And when you
have the machines, all the looms for yourself, when you take care of the looms for
yourself they give you $10.00 and hour, plus how much you make. You can make
$10.00, $11.00, $12.00, $14.00, $15.00, it depends on if the looms are running good or
bad.
G: Did you prefer the new plant to the old plant?
F: Oh yes, it was much better.
G: How was it better?
F: Oh, it was cleaner, it was prettier, we had a lot of light. Oh, it was much better to
work in that plant, oh yes.
G: What were the safety conditions like in both places?
24
�F: Safety, hm. Well we have to wear the ear protection all the time. They don’t want oil
on the floor. We have to be careful with our hands while operating. We have to be very
careful, because most of, I have two friends that lost the fingers there. Thank God that
never happened to me, but sometimes it happens.
G: Was this at Jackson Street?
F: Jackson Street.
G: They did lose fingers. (F: Yes) With the looms.
F: With the looms. With the rapiers. They came too fast and they just got stuck. One
was a fixer.
G: One was a fixer. Yah. Did you have little bumps and bruises? You said you, with
the rolls you felt sore.
F: Sore in the other plant, (G: In the other plant) not this one. (G: I see) In this one we
didn’t have to do anything. (G: Okay) Just put the cones and the quill. We have to fill
the quill all the time for the rapier. (G: Yes) But we didn’t have to take the rolls, or do
anything else. No, no, just patrol the loom and fix, we had a lot of fixing to do because
the yarn was a different kind of yarn. So it was not as good as the other kind. But that
was a job. It was nice. It was not bad. We had lots of silk yarn looms.
G: Now did you, did you enjoy your work there?
F: Yes, it was not bad. It was a good, I liked the job. I liked the people that I worked
with, and I liked the supervisor. He was the best. And at the time we had the boss, he
was a Chairman. Oh, Ralph [Ferbers], Ralph Ferbers, he was a very nice boss. Very
nice, very friendly.
G: He was Joe’s boss as well?
F: Yes. (G: Okay) He was one of the big ones. (G: Okay. Uh huh) And he was very
kind, very nice. He used to come down in the machines and talk to us, and see if
something was wrong, and if we need something. And he was very nice, very nice
person. But along the years a lot of people went and came, and went again. So.
G: Was there a high turnover?
F: Yes. (G: There was) And most of the people that came to work after Ralph [Ferbers],
they were snobby. So, they didn’t talk to nobody. They don’t say, “Hi.” They don’t
look at you. So we feel like kind of cold. We don’t feel like working anymore. We just
look at the looms, “Oh, here I am again for another day. Oh boy I wish I was home.”
Yah, we don’t feel as nice as before.
25
�G: So this turnover was more so with management you’re saying.
F: Yes, for management, yes. And everything started going wrong, because they have
new ideas, and they’re working with computers. That’s what I think. And the computers,
that’s very nice, but you are working with people and people are the ones, they know
what’s going on in the looms, not the computer. The computer gives you the idea, but
there is, it doesn’t have the knowledge that the person that is working with the looms
knows. It doesn’t matter if he’s the weaver, if he’s the fixer, they’re not tired, we know
what’s going on with a machine. We even know why this has happened, or that has
happened. Sometimes we cannot fix, but we know what that loom is doing. And they
have all figured out in a computer, and it’s not doing the same thing. It’s the opposite.
They came to us and they yell and scream because something is going on wrong, because
we are not doing this and this. It’s not so. If you come down from your high horses, and
come down and talk with the people and you know, talk to us, to any, not me but
anybody, they would know what’s going on, but they don’t.
G: So there was greater distance between (F: Yes!) the managers and their knowledge
(F: Yes!) of what’s happened on the shop floor.
F: Yes. They don’t, they don’t care. I believe for a couple of years until Joan shut down
the weave room. Yah, ’96. People were machines working with all the machines. So
they don’t care who is there. They don’t care for how long you’re there, because they
know, but you don’t. (G: Right. Right) So when they start like that everything is going
down.
G: And when did that change occur? Do you remember when did that change in
relationship occur?
F: Oh, about in the 90’s.
G: In the 90’s?
F: 90’s, when everybody starts coming, new bosses, new management. They start doing,
this person knows what he’s doing. He’s going to do this, and he’s going to do that.
G: I see. I see.
F: They didn’t know enough about the weave room, and about how to run that machine,
how to run the whole shifts, and they didn’t. They didn’t know how to do that. Maybe
they were very good at what they were doing, okay, but not there with us. They didn’t
know how to work with people.
G: Did your colleagues who worked with you on the shop floor start looking for other
jobs, or (--)
26
�F: Everybody was disappointed. Everybody start saying, “Oh, we’re going here.”
That’s when they started moving to Malden Mills, (G: Uh huh) because Malden Mills
was promising a lot of things. So like Joe Pais and Maria Pais, so they move. That’s the
ones I know best, they moved. (G: Yes) And they were working at Malden Mills for, I
think the maximum was two years, and they came back.
G: Why did they come back?
F: Well they came back because even with all of these defects that they were putting
together, it was better working at Joan’s.
G: Why is that?
F: Better because we were treating the way they said, we were treating better, they were
treating us better than Malden Mills was treating them there. (G: Really) That’s what
they said. I don’t know because I never went to Malden. They wanted me to got there
(G: Yah) and I said, “No, because over here I already have my vacation. I know the
people. I know what I’m doing.” And I’m not the person that likes to jump from here
and there. When I’m, I’m happy in one place, I stay. No matter what happens around
me, I may not like it, but I’m trying to do my job and try, there people don’t bother me. I
they don’t bother me it’s fine, I’m going to keep doing what I’m doing. And they told
me, “No Francisca, come back, this is good. They pay a little more.” But they had ten
machines, ten, ten at the Malden Mills.
G: And weren’t they working longer hours too? Were they working longer?
F: They were working twelve hours. (G: Yes) And they were working the shift, the
rotating shifts. It was twelve hours, and one week they worked forty something hours,
the other was thirty something hours. You know, they do their rotation. (G: Right, right)
And I don’t like that. I don’t like that. So I said, “Okay, I’m going to stay here.” About
two years later they come back. They said, “Oh Francisca you were right. I don’t know
why, but you were right not moving, because we cannot have a coffee, we cannot go to
the bathroom, we cannot (--)” I said, “Uh huh, I told you.” Because after all of these
things we had supervisors, they were not too bad. Most of them, they were not doing
much, but didn’t want to be bothered. So if we were going to get a coffee, they just close
their eyes because they don’t want to pay attention, because they don’t want to be
bothered. So we, they used to call me Norma Rae. Joe Mandazi used to call me Norma
Rae, because everything that happened he had to start with me. Maybe because I was the
oldest in everything, in the company and in age, I was older than anybody else. So
anything that happened they come to me. “Francisca what are we going to do?”
“Francisca, they are doing this, what are we going to do?” I said, “Oh my God, we have
no union. We don’t have a union.” They don’t want a union there. So I says, “Well
what we can do, if something happens,” like one thing happened before. Oh well it’s a
funny one. We were working forty hours okay, like any other place. And they told us
that we have to work Saturdays. We have to. I said, “Okay, we have to if we can do it,
because some people cannot do it. They have small children. They cannot work
27
�Saturdays. Most of the mothers they don’t have babysitter. They have to stay home.” So
one day they came, they start giving slips. For the people that don’t work Saturdays they
were having warning slips. And they came to me of course. “Hey Francisca, what are
we going to do? Because I just have this slip and I can’t work, and I don’t (--)” I said,
“I’m not the supervisor, so what can I do?” “Oh you, you have the right ideas and you
can do this, you can do that.” I said, “Okay.” What we did, it was crazy then, but when I
think about something I just don’t think too much. And I said, “Stop all the looms. Stop
all the looms.” And you got to stop, because most of them they don’t know English, so
they didn’t know what was going on. But they respect me. And if I say something, even
for the older people that were there, I was right. Because I used to translate for them, and
go to the office with them, and talk to the bosses about this or that, so they respect me.
So I told them, “Stop it.” And they stopped because I said so. And there was a silence.
Oh my God, forty looms stopped. So it was such a silence. The bosses came outside, the
supervisors, “What’s wrong, what’s wrong?” “Hey, we have to talk about something.
This and this and this has happened. They are giving slips for the people that don’t work
Saturdays, and I believe after forty hours you cannot make people work. They work if
they want to, and if they can. If they cannot do it, they cannot do it.” They sent a person
from Tewksbury. We were all in the office and they sent a person to find out what was
going on.
G: You mean in Tyngsboro.
F: In Tewksbury. (G: Yah) Because they didn’t know what was going on. Why all that
looms stopped, and what was going on in the office, because we all went in the office and
we talked to the boss.
G: Who was that? Do you remember?
F: Jim Donovan. I believe now he’s South someplace, Jim Donovan. And he came
down and he said, “I know. I can see you.” It’s me. “I can see you right there. You are
the one who stopped everything.” I said, “This time I have to, because this and this and
this.” Because they had a new manager there, and he was the one that said that we had to
do, they had to work like that, (G: Umhm) because they have too much work. And
because it was the summertime, and they had too much work. People were skipping
because they want to go to the beach and this, and they had (--)
Tape I ends
Tape II side A begins.
G: Now Joe Donovan came down (F: Jim Donovan came), Jim Donovan came down
from Tyngsboro, or did you guys go?
F: No, he was working upstairs. They send a person, a female, a girl. I never saw her
before. I think that she was some kind of secretary or something like that. She came
down to find out what was going on. And they said, “Oh, everything is fine, no problem.
28
�Go back to your work, and never, that is not going to ever happen again.” And they
didn’t. Jim Donovan was the kind of person that nobody liked that man. He was rude.
He was rude to people. But I can see, I start talking to him, and I understand that he was
that kind of man that you couldn’t trust him, because he was a dictator. And he would go
through hell to get his words straight so nobody would say, “Oh, he said that and he
didn’t do it.” No. Even if he was wrong he was right. He was that kind of man. So after
that we didn’t have no more problem. We started working, one person, needs to stay
home another one would come over and work overtime. So we started working like that
because that’s the way it should be done. Not making people like, “Hey you have to, you
have to.” You don’t have to, because after forty hours if you come over and you work,
but if you cannot do it somebody else will do it for you.
G: Now did you get overtime pay for Saturday work?
F: Yes.
G: Was it time and a half?
F: Time and a half, and most of the times, later on they had Sundays too. That was
double time.
G: Now when was this Francisca? When did they actually go from this forty hours to
forty hours plus Saturday. Do you remember, when was that? When did they make this
statement that you had to work Saturdays?
F: It was about maybe ’93, or ’94. It was a couple of years before they shut down,
because they had a lot of work they want to finish. (G: Yes) They had to give that work
to the customers. (G: Okay) So they were, they really needed the people working, but
they could come down and make a meeting once in awhile with us, because we like to
know what’s going on. All of a sudden they came down they, “You do this, you do
that.” Come on, hello, I’m here! I’m a person. I’m not a machine. But they don’t.
G: Now did Donovan work in Jackson Street, or did he have his office in Tyngsboro?
F: No, he worked in Jackson Street. (G: Okay, so he) He had his office, but he was one
of the bosses.
G: Yah, okay. Now did you occasionally work Saturdays then after?
F: Yes, I worked a lot of Saturdays and I worked a lot of Sundays after, (G: Okay)
because they were paying double, double time.
G: Double times on Sundays.
F: Yah, double time on Sundays. So I worked for a lot of, maybe six or seven months
they worked like that.
29
�G: So it sounds like they had a lot of orders coming in.
F: They had a lot, a lot of orders. I don’t understand how can a company as strong as
that one, because it was strong, they had a lot of orders, and all of a sudden they don’t
have no more orders. It’s something very strange. And I believe that it was not from the
people, because we were the same ones there all the time. They didn’t change. They
didn’t have new people coming in. What they were changing all the time was
management. They were changing over. A couple of months one man, a couple of
months another man, another. That, that starts, everything starts going down when they
were moving so much. Something was wrong with management. I don’t know what it
was.
G: Now at that time did you know Elkin McCallum?
F: Yes.
G: And what was, what did you think of him?
F: Well to tell you the truth, I loved that man. I really love that man. And I was so
surprised when he left like that. He didn’t even talk to us. Because in my heart, because
I’d known him for so long, and he used to come down and talk to me, and say, “That’s
my oldest girl and you’re going to be in a museum,” because, and he liked to joke around
with me. And I, I used to tell the girls, “He doesn’t care about us.” And I said, “No, he’s
going to take care of us. He’s a good man. He’s going to do it. He’s going to take care
of us.” So I always thought in my heart that through to the end he would come over and
talk to us, and even a talk. He don’t need to give us anything, but to say I’m sorry but
that happened, and so and so. I think that’s what that man should have done. I don’t
know, but in my heart it was very hurt, because I expect him to do something for us. He
didn’t give it. He didn’t even show up. He didn’t say nothing.
G: Now, and of course you remember him going back to the 1970’s right? (F: Yes) Did
you first meet him back when?
F: I met him about 1980, 1986 or 87. (G: Okay) It was after Larry passed away. That’s
when he (G: And Elkin took over) took over, and he start coming down. Sometimes
twice a year he would come over and look around the weave room, and say hi, and talk to
us. It was nice. It was nice. And after he, after that, about five, five or six years before
they shut down, it was in the 90’s, ’91, he had the breakfast. He called all the employees
and he had the breakfast in December. Like he had extra money like that, they used to
say. And we all get together and have breakfast, and he was so nice. And he could talk,
and we could talk. And give our opinion about, they didn’t pay attention anyway, but we
could say this or that was wrong, or was right, you know. It was nice.
G: Where was the breakfast held?
30
�F: On the Sheraton downtown. And he was very nice. I think he was the best. He was
very nice.
G: Was it for all employees?
F: No, after fifteen years. You have to be there fifteen years. After the fifteen you were
invited to the breakfast.
G: And it was once a year they would have the breakfast.
F: Once a year. Yah. It was very nice.
G: So you had a good relationship with Elkin McCallum?
F: Elkin, yes, and I would like to talk to him. Oh I would love to talk to him, because I
think what he did was bad.
G: This is later on when they, when he sold the company to Collins & Aikman. (F:
Yes) Before we get to that though I want to ask you a couple of more things. (F: Yes)
You mentioned that there was no union at Joan Fabrics. (F: No union) And was there
ever any encouragement to have a union with other workers?
F: They came to my house.
G: Uh huh. Who came?
F: The union. Two ladies. Oh my God I don’t remember their names. It was in 1984, or
‘85, ’84, I had my last kid. I had Elizabeth. I was home with Elizabeth. Yes, ’84, two
ladies from the union they came back to my house and they asked me if I want to be a
leader. (G: Umhm) And I never told them. And I said no.
G: You never told who that?
F: I never told the people in the company. (G: Oh) Because most of them I could listen
to conversations, and most of them they didn’t want the union. They didn’t want to pay
for, they didn’t want to, because we were that people (--) And even for me, I told the
lady there, even for me I like to talk with the supervisor. And if something is not good I
will go with the supervisor to the boss, and I will talk to them but I can see their faces. I
don’t want people talking for me. I want to see them and see their reaction. And if
they’re doing, what kind of answer I’m going to have. So I don’t like people telling me
they said that, or they’re going to do this, or they’re going to do that. I like to talk to the
person. So that day I told the lady I was not interested in being a leader, and it was too
much responsibility, because it’s not easy, especially when you have a company that you
have Spanish, and Portuguese, and Greeks, it’s a diversity. It’s one think one way, the
other think the other, the other think the other. It’s very hard. So I said, I don’t want, I
don’t want no part of that, but they came to my house once.
31
�G: I wonder, how did they hear about you? Do you have any idea?
F: I have no idea. They told me, what the ladies told me that somebody in the company
told them that I would be a very good leader, (G: Yes) for them to come to my house,
they gave the address and everything to come to my house and talk to me, because I
would be very good at that.
G: Like Norma Rae.
F: Like Norma Ray. Joe would call me Norma Rae all the time. “Oh Norma Ray, get
out of my office!” [Laughs]
G: Did you ever see the movie Norma Rae?
F: Yes, and I was there. [Laughs] Yes.
G: Now was there also in, at Joan, was there a discouragement to not be in the union?
Were there ever any notices put up, or anything?
F: No. No. (G: No) Nothing that I see that I know of, no. No, they just didn’t have it.
They didn’t want it. They didn’t want union at all there.
G: Yah, but you didn’t hear them actively discouraging the union, did you, among the
management?
F: No. No, they don’t even talk about it. They never talk about it, never. Never heard
that union in there. We never heard of that, no.
G: Among other workers?
F: Among the workers, sometimes. (G: Sometimes) Sometimes they talk, I wish, one
or two, we wish we had union, they couldn’t do this or they couldn’t do that to us and all
that, but they were going by seniority. One thing they went all the time. You have
seniority, they go by your seniority. You go do this, you go there. The only thing they
didn’t do it was when they had other jobs openings, they never told us. It was never a
post there so we could if you wanted to move, if we want to make more money, if you
want to do a better job. If they were the jobs they didn’t tell nobody. If we say
something, “Oh, you don’t care about that. You don’t care, you’re making a lot of
money. Oh you’re doing good.”
G: Now you said you had two more kids while working at Joan?
F: Yes, I had Sonya.
G: When did you have her?
32
�F: ’79. I have her in ’79, and it was very nice. I had a supervisor then. Oh I had so
many supervisors. Some of them I don’t remember the names. His name was Mike Pray.
He was a wonderful man, a wonderful person. He was a lady’s man, but with me, no
problem. I don’t care, but he was very, very good looking and he was all, oh he was a
nice, but he was nice. And when I had Sonya they didn’t give you time to stay home
with your kids. You just have the baby, you stay home two weeks and you come back to
work. That’s it. Sometimes one week. It depends if you have the, they give you three
weeks. If you take that time before the baby, you don’t have the time after. So I never,
never took time. I never took time out anyway, never, for nothing. (G: Before?)
Before, not before, never, I work until the last day. (G: Really) Yes. My boss, Mike
Ray, used to tell me, I don’t know where he is, but he’s such a nice guy, he was such a
nice man, “Francisca are you going to have the baby over here? I don’t want to deliver
that baby! I don’t want to deliver that baby!” And I know I went home after, I was
working, I was feeling fine, the next morning I had the baby. And he says, “I told you
you were going to have the baby over here!” So I waited to the last, last day, because I
want to stay home after. And I stayed home for three weeks. And I came to talk with
Mike. He was that kind of man that we could talk to him. It’s not very often that we
have a person like that. And I told him, “Mike, I would like more time off, but I don’t
know what to do, because they want me to go to the doctor and get a notice that I cannot
work.” And he says, “What are you waiting for? You just had a baby. They don’t know
what’s going down there. So tell them that something is wrong and you have some time
at home!” So I went back to my doctor and I explained to him that I need more time with
the baby, stay home with the baby. And he said, “Oh, you have an infection.” I said,
“Where?” And I stayed home another month. I loved that. I stayed home because they
pay me. (G: Not pay you) But they did pay me, and I needed that money. They paid
$80.00 a week. $80.00 a week. [That wasn’t bad].
K: But would they have held your job if you had just decided to stay home for an extra
month, and you didn’t have your doctors papers? Would they have held your job?
F: No they won’t. No, no, no, they wouldn’t.
K: Now were things different in ’84 when you had Elizabeth?
F: No, the same. I was always the same. Always the same.
G: So would you have lost your job if you?
F: If I stay home more time, yes I would lose my job.
G: Even though you had seniority there.
F: Even, when you have too much seniority you can talk it over with the bosses, (G: I
see) okay, and they can give you one or two weeks home without pay and after you come
33
�back. They can change you to another shift. They can cut your pay. It depends how the
person, the person that is there can do to you. But that place has work very bad with
people. They don’t treat people right. People, in me when I see things the way I see it, I
think people were treated very bad, because they needed time off. They needed to see,
like people die and they are from another country, they should have the time to go to
mourning for his relative no matter who it is, mother, or father. They wouldn’t allow
them to go. I had a friend like Maria Pais that I talked about it. She had a son that he’s
working in a bank now downtown, Joe, Manny Pais, and he had a tremendous accident
and he was in coma. He was, they had to have a helicopter getting from the disaster. He
had a big, big, what do you call it? What is a big accident, a big, big one. He was, he
was by himself. He didn’t hurt nobody or anything.
G: Umhm, in an automobile?
F: Automobile accident. And he was in coma. And they, he was, all of his bones were
broken. And he was two, I think one or two months he was in coma. And he has to be
lift by a helicopter to another hospital from Saint Joseph’s because they couldn’t do
nothing with him. It was terrible. And that woman was there working third shift. I never
forgot that. And she was crying the whole night because she didn’t know what was going
on with her son, and they never let her go, because, because she has a problem with
migraines. She had that problem all her life, migraines. I know her for, now for thirty
years. She always worked with me, always, all the time. She was a weaver too, and we
worked together. She’s from the main land. She’s from Portugal, the main land. And
every time she has that migraine she’s going crazy. She can see the light, she throws up.
She, poor thing, she suffers so much, and there is nothing, she takes every pill on the
counter, nothing works. She’s been in doctors. She has tremendous migraines, and she
has to be out of work when she had that. Because she has some days out before with the
migraines, the don’t let her go. They said, “If you go you lose your job.” This is some
human thing to do.
G: When did this happen? When was this?
F: It was in 90, she had ah, no, ’97. (G: Okay) ’97, ’98.
G: Yah, but that, was that their policy all along, that you can only take so much time off?
F: We have to take sick day. We don’t have sick days. We don’t have sick days, but we
can be out in one month, one day a month. And we, you have to wait two more months.
Oh wait, every two months, every two months you have one day.
G: One sick day.
F: One sick day, but you are not paid for, but you can be out. (G: I see) But they don’t
pay you. (G: Okay) No pay.
G: And has that been always the policy? That’s the way (--)
34
�F: It’s been always like that, because before it was like that. It’s always been like that.
G: So it’s not a very progressive policy.
F: No, no. They just keep it that way. I don’t if that is from Tewksbury, you know, from
(G: Tyngsboro?) Tyngsboro yes, Tyngsboro that had the policy there, or if something
over here they have with the bosses and supervisors and the management there. I don’t
understand that.
G: Management might have a different policy.
F: Policy, yes. I don’t know. They never explained to us.
G: They never said that to you.
F: No, no, we just figured it out.
G: What about your vacation time? Were you always given vacation?
F: Vacation, we have one week vacation for ten years. After ten years, until your fifth
year, you have, fifteen year, you have two weeks vacation. And after fifteen years being
in there you have four weeks vacation. But it’s very funny, because the four weeks you
cannot take it at once. You take two weeks in summertime, during the summertime. It
can be May, June, July, it doesn’t matter. You have two weeks. And after you have two
weeks in December. You cannot have the four weeks together. We never, never had.
Before, in the 80’s, we used to take the four weeks if we had, the people that had the four
weeks, you can take the four weeks, but after, about in the 90’s they started having
people going to Columbia, and Chili and other, the South America. Far away, and they
take more time. So they decided nobody will take no more time. If you have four weeks
you can’t take the four weeks. You just have two weeks in the summer, and at the end of
December, before the New Year you would have your other two weeks vacation.
G: Were you required to take those two weeks in December, or could you take them say?
F: If you don’t take, they don’t care. They want you working. If you want to work
that’s fine with them. They will pay you the paid vacation. (G: I see) Yes. If you work
it’s fine with them because they don’t have to pay overtime to another person to work in
your place.
G: Now you mentioned, you mentioned that in ’96, (F: Yes) ’95 they took out the rapier
looms.
F: Yes, all of them.
G: And what, how did that affect you?
35
�F: A lot. A lot, because most of the people had to get other jobs. They didn’t have the
jobs for everybody. So it was a tremendous lay-off. And the oldest people like me and
Olivia Maldonado, and Marguerita Rango, and Alice Paez and her husband Joe Paez, the
oldest ones, they give us the opportunity to go to the knitting department. They were
needing people there. So we had to work third shift. We went from first for all my life to
work on first shift, to work third shift.
G: And what were those hours?
F: It was from 10:00 at night to 6:00 in the morning.
G: This is after having worked there for many years.
F: For ah, oh my God, for twenty years.
G: Yes, all of a sudden you’re having to work third shift (F: Yes) in the knitting
department.
F: In the knitting department. And I had, oh what do you call it, the boss (Tom Petros)
there, I don’t remember his name. My God he just left a few months ago. Maybe later on
I will remember his name. (F: Yah) He called me and he said, “Francisca, you’ve been
working with us for a long time, and I like you.” I don’t if it was true or not, but he said
that. “You are a hard worker and I’m going to give you an opportunity to go to the
knitting department. I‘m not going to give you lay-off.” I said, “Okay.” He told me, I’m
going to have five more machines coming in for the knitting department, and when they
are in you’re going to be on first shift. Okay. I worked with him for a long time, I said,
“Okay, I’m going to trust him.” So I went on third shift for fifteen months, and as soon
as they had the machines installed I went on first shift. 9G: Okay. Uh huh) He kept his
promise.
G: Now you shifted from weaving to knitting. Did you (--)
F: It was a complete, oh my god, for me it was a disaster.
G: Well let me ask you then before that, did you, did somebody else who had that job,
were they laid off so you could take that position?
F: No. (G: Okay) What they did, they were going to have five more machines in, and
they had five machines a person. So they needed three more knitters. It was me on first,
Marguerita on second, and Alice on third.
G: Okay.
F: So we would be the three women, the oldest ones over there. (G: Right) So I went
on the knitting department. Oh my God! That was day and night. I didn’t understand
36
�one thing about that machine. It was so many, many, oh! They had beams, a lot of
beams. One, two, three, four, five beams. They had a lot of yarn. They had [harness],
different kind of [harness]. The drop wires, millions of drop wires. At the time I thought
it was really millions of drop wires. I said, “Oh my God!” There was all that beams and
rolls, and rolls, all different. Oh I was so confused. And I had all the kind of tools that I
have to work with. Oh I was so confused. “I my God, I said, I will never learn this job.”
I couldn’t see. I had to get my glasses, because I couldn’t see, because it’s a very tiny,
tiny, tiny needles. (G: Yes) And we had to put the hook, and cut the yarn, but we don’t
see it, we don’t see it. After a while, a long while we do that without even think what
we’re doing, but when we start learning. Oh, [he is me,] poor Francisca crying again. I
said, “Oh my. I just came to this country to cry in these jobs!” [Laughs] But after awhile
I start working, and I like the job, and I liked the people there. They were good, and the
supervisors were nice.
G: They weren’t as noisy, were they, as the rapiers?
F: Oh they are noisy too.
G: Were they?
F: Oh yes. Oh yes. We have to wear the ear protection all the time, all the time. They
were noisy.
G: Did you get a pay increase in knitting?
F: Yes, we were making fifteen dollars an hour, plus piecework, because over there they
do it. I think, I don’t know about other factories, but I believe all this kind of weaving
and knitting and, they press people to (G: To work harder) work harder and they give the
production so they will be more enthusiastic. “Hey, I’m doing some money!” That’s
what I think, I don’t know. I never work another place before, but I believe they are all
the same.
G: Were there mostly women there as well as knitters?
F: Yes, yes. The knitters are all women. Just third shift they have two or three men.
They had, now it’s gone too. It’s nothing there. Even the knitting department shut down
last months. Yes.
G: Maybe we should (--) We are (--) I don’t want to keep you too much longer, but I
wanted to ask you, (F: Yes) when you mentioned that recently Joan Fabric and Elkin
McCallum sold out part of the (F: The company, yes) operation (F: the operation) to
Collins and Aikman. Were you there for a while after Collins and Aikman took over?
F: In the knitting department, yes, we were there for about let’s see, five months? Four
or five months.
37
�G: Tell us the changes you saw when that change occurred.
F: To tell you the truth there was no changes. They just keep going the same way.
That’s what scared me. I started seeing (--) The things that really happened, okay. The
changes, okay, is that they start slowing down. We didn’t have no overtime. No
Saturdays, no, everything stopped, start going really slow, like slow motion. “Oh we
don’t have to do these. We don’t need this cloth now.” We started changing machines. I
would have three machines, four machines, and from that girl, that girl will go to the
other set and work on two or three machines, different ones. We always had one here,
another there, another there.
G: So you were being switched around?
F: Switched around because they don’t need this cloth. I was weaving one kind of cloth,
but they don’t need that. All of a sudden they don’t need. So I had to go for another
kind of cloth. So I had to jump in front of me, two or three rows to get another machine.
You know, I was kind of start going like that. I said, “Oh oh, umhm, I don’t think we’re
going to be here for long.” “Oh, we have too much work.” I didn’t believe it. I never
believed that.
G: Now you said that Elkin never told people. (F: Never) Tell me about that. So you
had no clue that they were selling the company?
F: No, we had no clue they were selling. We had no clue that we were going to get out
of there. Never. They always told us, the supervisors and the bosses, they always told us
“We are fine. We are going to be here for a long time. We have a lot of orders. We have
a lot of customers. Don’t worry about it. Everything is fine.” Until the last moment,
because they knew people would be looking for jobs, and they would be with nobody to
work, and they want to finish their work. Like they finished last week with one machine
left. They finished.
Tape II, side A ends
Tape II, side B begins
G: When did you, where did you learn that Collins and Aikman had bought the plant?
F: In the newspapers. They never told us anything, never, never, never. They never had
the meeting to tell (--) Well they had two meetings with us, and they said that everything
was fine. “Oh we cannot predict something that’s going to happen next year, but we are
doing fine, nobody has to worry about anything. If you have something to do just go
ahead and do it, because we are fine, and we’re going to be here for a long time. And
about a couple of months later we heard, I read in the newspaper.
G: How did you feel about that?
38
�F: Well I felt like going up there and just beat them up. That’s why I said, called them
liars, because they were liars. They should talk to us and tell us the truth. Tell us “In a
couple of months we’re going to be out of here.” We saw the machines move. They start
taking out all the machines from the knitting, one by one they start taking them out
someplace. I don’t even know where, because they don’t explain to us where they go.
We just seen them go by. Hey, bye bye, another one, and another one, and that’s it.
They don’t even tell us we are moving the machines because we’re going to be shut
down. Okay. They never did. They never explained anything to any of us, and I think
it’s very wrong.
G: Now were you still, when Collins and Aikman bought the plant, were still being paid
by Joan Fabrics, or were you now (--)
F: Joan Fabrics until the end, always.
G: Okay. So even though Collins and Aikman owned the plant, (F: Yes, we were) you
were still an employee of Joan’s.
F: Joan’s, yes.
G: Isn’t that a strange arrangement?
F: Yes, but I don’t understand it. (G: Okay) I really don’t understand, and nobody
knew. Nobody knew what was going on, because it was just between them.
G: Did you see some new people in management coming in there and doing some work
as well?
F: They had new people coming. I don’t even know their names, because they never (G:
Introduced themselves?) introduced themselves. They just go by and look at us and they
don’t pay attention to anybody. It was cold. After that we don’t feel like staying there.
Even we don’t care. A few months going by you know, and we look at each other and
say, “I don’t care to work here anymore.” Because I don’t know nobody, they don’t even
talk to us, they don’t explain anything. We just feel like, “Hey, I don’t care anymore.”
G: Were they laying people off gradually?
F: Yes. And I believe they did that because they don’t have to pay us anything. If they
shut down and send everybody home, they have to give us some money. That way they
just give us little by little they were going to lay off people. So they don’t have to pay
you anything. That’s what they did.
G: So there was, there was no severance package in other words. (F: Nothing) You just
got laid off.
F: Just laid off.
39
�G: And when were you finally laid off?
F: November 9th, last year.
G: November 9th of 2001?
F: 2001.
G: And were you one of the last there, or were there still others?
F: No, no, there was still two more people there. Two girls.
G: Two more in the knitting department.
F: Yes, two more girls in the knitting department. And after, because he told me, my
supervisor, he told me if I want to go to third shift again, because they two girls that were
there, they were older than me in the company. They were coming from plant one, so
they were older than me of course. And they were going to stay on first, and I had to
move to third. And I said, “Billy,” Bill Sherman.
G: Bill Sherman.
F: Yes. I said, “Bill, I’m not going to go on third shift again. I did that once. Now I’m
getting old. I’m not going to do that no more. If I don’t have a job on first shift, just lay
me off. I will go home and I will try to find something.” I don’t want to be (--) If you
tell me, I asked him, “If you tell me I’m going to be on third shift for awhile, or for a
year, I don’t care, but you tell me that I’m going to be up on first shift again, and working
over here, it’s fine.” And he looked at me and he just give one of that smiles, and he
says, “Francisca, no. It’s just going to be a couple of months.” And that I believed right
away. I said, “Okay, I’m not going to third shift for a couple of months.
G: So he let the cat out of the bag.
F: Yes. Until then he says, “Oh, I don’t know. I don’t know what’s going to happen. I
don’t know what’s going to happen.” And everybody knew. Maybe they really didn’t
know really, really what was going to happen, (G: Yes. Yes) but they knew that things
were not good, but they never let us go. They never let us know that. That was bad.
G: How do you feel about Elkin McCallum after this?
F: I think he did very, very bad. He was very wrong what he did, and he didn’t, he’s not
a man of his word, because he always told us that he was going to look after us, and he
was going to take care of the business, because he loves the weaving and he loves the
knitting department, and he just let everything go. He don’t even say nothing to us. Not
even have a meeting. He didn’t have the, I know, the courage to tell us this is going to
40
�happen, and I’m sorry but I can’t keep the business, something went bad, or something
like that. I think that we, he owed us an explanation. But he never showed up, never said
nothing. He just disappeared. He just disappeared, that’s it.
G: Did you ever try to contact him?
F: No. No, but I would like to see him. I always tell the girls, “I wish I could see him.”
G: You’d tell him a few things.
F: Yes. Yes. What he did was very wrong. Because I had my heart on him. I always
trust that man, and I’d say, he’s going to do something. I don’t believe he’s going to
leave us like this. He’s going to do something. Maybe he’s going to tell us to go to
another company. He’s doing something for us I thought. And they say, “Oh you’re
stupid, you believe that,” the girls. They were smarter. I said, “Oh I trust that man. I
think he’s going to do something.” But he didn’t.
G: The other girls didn’t (--)
F: It was a deception for me.
G: They didn’t trust him so much.
F: No. No. I trust him. I trust him, but I was wrong. I was wrong.
G: Did the company Collins and Aikman offer any people other jobs in other parts of the
country do you know?
F: There was people from, but they’re supervisors, and engineers and things like, people
like that. They went to New Bedford, and they moved around.
G: And North Carolina?
F: Yes. They moved around. (G: Okay) I find out that after.
G: Uh huh.
F: But not the weaver. We have no skilled to, to go for another job.
G: So you were not offered an opportunity to take a job with the company somewhere
else?
F: No. The, three weeks ago they sent me a letter telling me that they have openings on
Dutton Street.
G: In Dutton Street?
41
�F: In Dutton Street.
G: Dutton Yarns.
F: Dutton Yarns.
G: Uh huh. So you got a letter from?
F: From Joan’s. They were telling me to go there, but no. (G: Why? Why wouldn’t
you?) Very bad, very bad job. It’s all dusty, and oh, it’s terrible. Just in tremendous
emergency I will go there.
G: Do you know people who work there?
F: No. That’s all new people.
G: How do you know about the conditions here?
F: A friend of mine went there. I didn’t went there. My friend went. Maria, you know
Maria Paez, (G: Oh she did) she went there. (G: Oh really) And she called me and she
said, “Francisca, it’s terrible.” I heard from other people that it was terrible, because
there’s a lot of dust in the air.
G: And they’re strictly producing yarn there.
F: Yes, just yarns, yes.
G: And dyeing too? Are they dyeing there too?
F: No I don’t think so. I think it’s just the yarn. They’re just making, producing the
yarn. (G; Okay) And she says, “Hi Francisca, please!” I went, they didn’t have the job.
They were already filled. All the openings were filled already, but she went anyway.
And she said, “Hi Francisca, please don’t go, that’s terrible! Oh my God I never knew
they had a place like that to work!” It’s already, the places they have are already worse
than the ones that we had before. Oh!
G: This is back in the old Prince Pasta Plant.
F: Yes. Yes. Yes, I didn’t went there. I didn’t went. I said I’m going to wait and get
my lay-off and doing some cleaning around, and (--)
G: Is your friend Maria still there?
F: She’s still home like me. We are waiting for jobs.
42
�G: Okay. So she worked for a little while at Dutton and then left.
F: And left. She, she couldn’t stand that. She has that tremendous migraines and she got
sinus. Oh she’s really sick. I don’t have sinus, but she’s a woman that oh my God.
When she says that she’s sick, because she loves money, she loves money, but when she
says, “I’m sick” we have to believe it, because she is. She is sick.
G: Let me just ask you quickly a couple of other names. Did you know Luis Alvarado?
Kikay?
F: Yes. Yes. Luis Alvarado, yes.
G: He’s a delightful man. What?
F: Yes, very, very nice man. I met him in one of the breakfast. Yes, and I met him
another time when we went, because we didn’t have insurance. We didn’t have to (--)
Oh my God, we have a lousy insurance.
G: Health coverage.
F: Health coverage, very, very bad. Very bad health coverage. It didn’t cover nothing.
They said, “To cover everything.” It didn’t cover anything. So they want Blue Cross
Blue Shield to go in. And they called all of us to make like a statement. (G: A petition?)
See if you want that or not. And we went and I met him there. Luis is a very nice
person. (G: Yes) Very, very nice man.
G: So he was promoting, he was helping to promote a better health insurance.
F: A better health insurance.
G: What happened? Did it succeed?
F: We got it. (G: Yes) We got the Blue Cross Blue Shield. (G: Uh huh) Better, better
insurance. Of course we have to pay, but at least we have cover.
G: So your co-pay was higher.
F: $53.00 a week for a family, for a family plan.
G: When was that? When was this, do you remember?
F: Oh, it was in, oh it was a long time ago. A long time ago. Maybe ’79. (G: Yah)
Maybe in ’79, ‘80’s.
G: But before that you had no health insurance?
43
�F: They had health insurance, but it was no good.
G: Not a good policy.
F: Not a good policy.
G: You had to pay a lot. You had to pay a lot.
F: So you and other workers worked together and got the Blue Cross Blue Shield. And
now we were working, before we left, we worked very hard to get dental. They didn’t
have dental, and everybody was screaming and yelling for the kids, you know, we need a
dental policy. (G: Of course) And we got that. We had to pay $12.00 a week, but it was
nothing. It doesn’t cost very much. It’s Delta. Delta. Now I have Cobra, because I’m
out of, out of a job. But it doesn’t pay much, but at least it covers something. It’s good.
It’s good.
G: Now I thought Kikay said that at some point though in the 90’s Elkin had switched
over to a company policy. It was no longer Blue Cross Blue Shield, but it was now a
company health insurance, so that you were actually paying into Joan for your health
insurance.
F: No, I don’t know. I don’t know about that, because after a while my husband get a
very good insurance and we switched. (G: Oh I seee) So now I don’t’ know about hat
one. (G: Okay) No I don’t. (G: Yes) I don’t.
G: Well just to conclude, so what are your, how old are your kids now?
F: Well I have one that’s twenty-seven years old, and she’s pregnant to have a baby in
June.
K: Congratulations!
F: I’ going, thank you, I’m going to be a grandmother again. I have Richard, he’s 26, he
had two little girls. They’ve been married for seven years. This one has been married for
three years. And I have Elizabeth at home. She’s finishing high school this year. And I
have Sonya, then she came home from college, she finished college and she’s speech
therapy. She’s graduating in speech therapy. And Deborah is a teacher. [Unclear], she
in the computers. So they are all.
K: What are Elizabeth’s plans?
F: Elizabeth is painting and decorating. She wants to be an interior decorator. So.
G: And do they all live in Lowell, or in the Lowell area?
44
�F: They all live in, Deborah bought a house in New Hampshire, in Hudson, New
Hampshire. Richard has a house on Mammoth Road. And the other two are home with
me. I’m very happy to have them back. My daughter from, she was in Amherst.
K: UMass Lowell, I mean UMass Amherst.
F: UMass Amherst.
G: When did you move to South Highland Street?
F: Oh, twenty-three years ago. (G: Oh okay) We bought the house there.
G: Oh, so you bought the house there.
F: I bought the house there when Sonya was born. She’s twenty-three. Yes.
G: Well Francisca, thank you so much.
F: Oh you’re welcome.
G: This has been very delightful.
F: Oh thank you.
K: Thank you very much.
F: I hope, (--) I just talk and talk. Oh my god!
K: It’s fascinating
G: It’s a wonderful interview.
F: Well thank you!
Interview ends
45
�
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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UMass Lowell Portuguese American Oral Histories [1985-2018]
Description
An account of the resource
These oral histories with Portuguese immigrants and their descendants in the Greater Lowell area were conducted between 1985-2016. Topics covered include the experience of immigration, working conditions, family life, and more. These oral histories were funded by the Lowell National Historical Park, the American Folklife Center, and UMass Lowell.
Subject
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Azorean Americans
Children of immigrants
Cultural assimilation
Mills and mill-work
Portuguese American women
Format
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PDF
Language
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English
Type
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Document
Source
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All items can be found at the Center for Lowell History in Lowell, MA.
Publisher
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UMass Lowell, Center for Lowell History
Rights
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In Copyright - Educational Use Permitted: This Item is protected by copyright and/or related rights. You are free to use this Item in any way that is permitted by the copyright and related rights legislation that applies to your use. In addition, no permission is required from the rights-holder(s) for educational uses. For other uses, you need to obtain permission from the rights-holder(s).
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1985-2018
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
Antonio DeSousa
Manny Pais
Maria Pais
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Francisca DeSousa Oral History Interview
Creator
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Szewczyk, Kimberly
Fitzsimons, Gray
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
From the Oral History Collection at the Center for Lowell History.
Publisher
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UMass Lowell, Center for Lowell History
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2002-04-11
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copyright - Educational Use Permitted: This Item is protected by copyright and/or related rights. You are free to use this Item in any way that is permitted by the copyright and related rights legislation that applies to your use. In addition, no permission is required from the rights-holder(s) for educational uses. For other uses, you need to obtain permission from the rights-holder(s).
Format
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PDF
Language
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English
Type
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Text
Identifier
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02.03
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Lowell (Mass.)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Portuguese American women
Azorean Americans
Immigrants
Mills and mill-work
DeSousa Furniture
Lajes Field
Lowell Lingerie